In part 3 of our season premiere, we talk with documentary filmmaker Jia Wertz- whose debut film, 'Conviction', is all about Jeffrey Deskovic's story. In the interview, we discuss what motivated Jia to make a drastic career change into documentary filmmaking, her experience filming the doc and working with Jeff in the process as well as her connection to another wrongful conviction case we covered last season.
It's another must listen interview and one you don't want to miss!
FIND US ON SOCIAL MEDIA:
Instagram: @crimefamilypodcast
Twitter: @crimefamilypod1
Facebook: Crime Family Podcast
Email: crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com
EPISODE RESOURCES:
Follow Jia Wertz on Instagram @jiadocs
Watch 'Conviction' on Amazon Prime (US Only)
Visit Jia's website https://www.jiawertz.com/
In part 3 of our season premiere, we talk with documentary filmmaker Jia Wertz- whose debut film, 'Conviction', is all about Jeffrey Deskovic's story. In the interview, we discuss what motivated Jia to make a drastic career change into documentary filmmaking, her experience filming the doc and working with Jeff in the process as well as her connection to another wrongful conviction case we covered last season.
It's another must listen interview and one you don't want to miss!
FIND US ON SOCIAL MEDIA:
Instagram: @crimefamilypodcast
Twitter: @crimefamilypod1
Facebook: Crime Family Podcast
Email: crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com
EPISODE RESOURCES:
Follow Jia Wertz on Instagram @jiadocs
Watch 'Conviction' on Amazon Prime (US Only)
Visit Jia's website https://www.jiawertz.com/
Coming up on this episode of Crime Family:
One of the reasons, one of many reasons, I thought Adnan is not guilty at all is people were saying, oh, he lived, lived a double life...
... and they say about two and a half to I think 5% of the US prison population is innocent.
I think they told him something like, uh, you already told us you did it through the results of the lie detector test. So now we just need to hear you say it out loud so that they could just have it, you know, have the confession.
Are there any resources available for prisoners once they get out of jail in terms of like rehabilitation or life skills assistance, and specifically any that are focused on those who have been wrongfully convicted?
How do they come out eventually and then be so nice and forgiving and not bitter and not angry. And, you know, and, and in all three of those cases, all three of them have said that, that they're not angry. They're not bitter. And that, and it's amazing.
So we are here with Jia Wertz and Jia Wertz is an independent documentary filmmaker pursuing stories that explore wrongful convictions in the name of protecting the social order. She's currently investigating the vagaries and inconsistencies of the American criminal justice system through the story of Jeffrey Deskovic and other exonerees who have had their freedom restored at the cost of irreparable damage to their minds, relationships and families. Her debut documentary short titled "Conviction", premiered at the Greenwich International Film Festival and had great success on the festival circuit with official selections at twelve festivals.
The film won awards for best picture, best cinematography and an award of distinction, and is featured on Amazon prime in the US. She is currently in the final stages of post-production on the feature length documentary of the same story. Jia is from Calgary, Alberta, and currently divides her time between Calgary and New York city with her husband and son.
In addition, Jia is a featured writer for Forbes has contributed to a number of business and fashion publications, and is the founder and fashion designer of studio 15. So welcome Jia Wertz, we're so happy to have you on the podcast.
Thank you for having me on guys. I'm so excited to talk to you.
I just want to say though how the documentary was so good. Like I watched it. I thought it was really, really well done. And I can't wait to watch like the full length feature.
Thank you so much. I'm so glad you enjoyed it. Yeah. It's a quick 20 minute watch, but, uh, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's funny because it's, I find it heartbreaking and heartwarming at the same time.
Yeah.
Yeah. It was really interesting. So thanks for letting us watch that, even though we're in Canada.
Thank you for taking the time to watch it.
We all really enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. It was really good. Yeah. Okay. So, um, as AJ mentioned you had a successful career in the fashion industry or are you still do like more on the corporate side of things and you started your own company studio 15 and you have a commerce/fashion column in Forbes magazine.
Um, so you had all that and you decided to like completely jump to a new career. Um, I know that you had mentioned in previous interviews that the story of Reuben Carter and his book, "The 16th Round" was kind of your eye-opener to the reality of wrongful convictions. Um, and you're also very familiar with the Adnan Syed case..
And so cases like this are really fascinating to everyone who is interested in true crime, but not everyone decides to kind of take that drastic shift in and start a new career as a result of kind of learning about these things. So can you talk a little bit about what made you make that jump from a corporate fashion career to a career committed to helping those who have been wrongfully convicted?
Yeah, for sure. You know, I think, um, you're right. A lot of people don't do that, especially, you know, at the age of 40, which is when I did it. Um, but, but oddly enough, if you talk to Rabia Chaudry you know, Adnan's friend, um, she'll tell you about hundreds of people who have written to her and she's talked to have changed their careers as a result of hearing Adnan's story.
So I'm definitely not, not the only one that's for sure. Uh, but for me it kind of happened a little bit organically because I listened to Serial, and like everybody else. And I think like you guys were appalled, you know, what happened to Adnan and felt like, how could this be it's entertainment for everybody who's listening, but it's also someone's real life.
And this kid is not even a kid anymore and he's still in prison for something he didn't do. And it was just so infuriating. And I thought, you know, I want to do something to help, but like most people who want to help any bigger cause you just don't know what to do. You're a single person. You don't like sure.
You could donate a couple hundred bucks or you could volunteer your time. But other than that, it's just so hard to figure out what you can do that would make a bigger impact. And I was kind of in that exact same mindset for a long time, like four or five years, I was like, what can I do? And initially when Serial ended, I thought, you know, at least I can raise some money for Adnan's legal defense fund.
And so initially what I did. It's a really funny story. Actually, I was always on Rabia's Twitter and I was constantly like, what are the updates on Adnan? What is happening? And I didn't know, Rabia at the time. And I would just tweet her all the time. Like half the world will seem to be doing like, what's an update.
How is Adnan? And have you talked to him what's happening with his, with his case? And I noticed after a little while that right after, or right after, before my tweets was another woman's tweets and she was often asking the same things I was asking. And one time I noticed she wrote I'm in New York.
Please let me know if there's anything I can do. And I had just written I'm in New York, please let me know. I'm not far, like, if there's anything I can do. And I noticed that she wrote that and I was like, wait a minute. She's a New York, and I can't plan a fundraiser all by myself and I wanted to plan a fundraiser.
So I tweeted her and her name was Marian, I tweeted her and said, you know, I noticed that you're here too. And you had written to Rabia that you wanted to help. How about we get together and try and put our heads together and do something. And she told me after the fact we met for coffee, and now she's one of my closest friends, which is so funny.
Cause we met. Uh, Twitter. Uh, but after we met for coffee, she said, I thought you were a psychopath. She was like, I Googled you. And luckily you had enough of a Google presence that I was like, okay, she's not crazy. Let me meet her in person. And then we met for coffee and we completely hit it off. And she's just such a, another person who's just such a warrior for social justice and stuff.
And so we got along really well and we decided to plan this fundraiser and it turned out. She's like an established musician and she's worked with all kinds of people and she used to be on a reality show on TV, and she's had a whole, you know, really interesting background herself. And so we planned this fundraiser together and that was kinda my first, you know, taste of what I could do and how I could help.
And we did this tiny fundraiser in the basement of this upper west side pub. The guy was nice enough. We sat him the owner of the pub. We sat him down. We told him what we wanted to do. He gave us a space for free. We got friends to volunteer. I made the Free Adnan shirts because I had a fashion company. I had the ability to make shirts.
And so we made the shirts which we sold and we ended up raising a few thousand dollars in just one, in three hours. And so we donated that. And as, um, the process, it says of organizing fundraiser was going on, I ended up talking to Rabia and that's how I first met her. And then I ended up talking to Adnan's family and they ended up sending us a little video to play at the fundraiser as like a, you know, somebody from Adnan's side of the family.
So the audience, I guess, the attendees could hear from his family. And that was really successful for just a little thing that we put together, you know, off of a couple of tweets at a couple, you know, coffee dates and stuff. So we thought, um, I thought, you know, I want to do more stuff like this. And then as a result of meeting Adnan's family, fast forward a couple years later, I was at Adnan's post-conviction hearing. And at his post-conviction hearing, there was a film crew and they were filming and the family ended up telling us, you know, it's not public knowledge yet, so don't say anything, but you know, you have to sign a release because you might be in the background or whatever, but this is an HBO documentary that they're making about Adnan.
And, you know, we all know now it was Amy Berg's, The Case Against Adnan Syed.. And when I saw that I was so naive and I had zero experience in filmmaking, but I did have a 20 year background in photography. So I knew my way around a camera and I loved being behind the camera. And I was like, I was like an HBO doc, and there's just these three people filming.
And I was completely like out of my league and I was like, I can do this. And I went home and promptly, talked to my husband and enrolled in New York Film Academy to study documentary filmmaking because I thought that would be the best way to reach a broader audience. And that's kind of how the ball got rolling initially.
Wow. So yeah. It's it starts with a passion and yeah. Um, that's really, that's really cool how you make it sound like so easy. Like, wait, I just met up with some people, but I can imagine how much hard work that must've taken. Um,
it was a lot of work, but as you guys know, because yeah, by the way, I love that your siblings that do this podcast together, this is like, I have two brothers and this is like my dream scenario, which you guys are doing.
But as there's no one you're super passionate about something, it doesn't feel like work, you know, you enjoy it.
Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I love that story. Um, What was it about Jeff's case specifically that made you want to focus on him for your documentary?
So I met Jeff, so Marian, who I did the fundraiser with for Adnan, she said, she said, we should have a speaker for our fundraiser. Somebody who's an expert in wrongful convictions, because neither of us, you know, have a legal background or anything of the such. And I said, sure, that's a great idea. And she was like, I met a guy at a party and he has a really similar story to Adnan..
And she said that, um, he was also 16. He was a high school student. He was innocent, but he got wrongfully convicted of a murder of a classmate. So there was a lot of similarities and right away, I said, yeah, absolutely we should. And that's how I first met Jeff. He was a speaker at our fundraiser. And so when I ended up going to school a few years later, I reached out to Jeff only because he was the only person I personally knew that had been through something like this.
I didn't know anybody else in my real life. And so he was the only person I thought of, and he was the first person I reached out to. And he said, yes. And so. Started filming. I mean, right away while I was at a New York Film Academy still.
Oh, wow. What was the experience of making this documentary? Like, like what was it like working with Jeff, someone who had personally gone through something like this?
Fascinating. It was very, very interesting for, for me. Um, the very first day that we were shooting at Jeff's house, the first, you know, first official day, I, everything just felt perfect. I was like, this is where I meant to be. This is what I meant to be doing. It was, it was exactly what, where I wanted to be in what I wanted to do.
So it, it definitely felt great. There's lots of times where, um, I was talking to Jeff and you got to ask the tough questions because that's what people, those are the questions people want answered when they're watching a film. And there were times he got emotional and I felt bad, you know, for making him relive these things or putting him in a vulnerable position.
Um, but at the same time, I knew I had to ask the questions in order to get the right answers and the right information that we would have wanted in the film. The great thing about Jeff is I often joke that he talks about things that normal people wouldn't even be able to talk about. He talks about them like you just asked him what he ate for lunch. He's such an open book and he will tell you. Almost anything and everything. And, uh, to me in the beginning, it oddly felt like, um, he could talk about these things in a very even keel monotone way, almost removing emotion from it, which just from a psychological perspective and from it like a human interest story, it was very, very fascinating to me.
But Jeff, I often say is just such a dream, um, subject for a filmmaker because he's so open. There's nothing that he won't tell you. We talked about, uh, times when he was almost killed in prison. And, you know, we talked about how he, uh, contemplated suicide, seriously contemplate suicide, even tried. Um, you know, a couple of times like attempted suicide a couple of times, and he's just, he's just very, very open.
He's very dedicated to using his experience and his story to help other people. And he's so committed to that, that he's willing to talk about. Even the very, most difficult things, if it's going to help somebody, which I very much appreciate. So it was a, for me, it was such a great, A learning experience and B just such a, such a, it was time so well spent, you know, I, I enjoyed every minute of it.
Awesome. Okay. Um, so I guess, um, the last thing on this topic, do you have any advice for anyone who kind of wants to get involved in advocacy work or anyone who wants to make like a drastic career change?
Any advice in general?
Yeah, for sure. I mean one for anybody who wants to, um, You know, do advocacy work and stuff like that. I think the best thing you can do is just immerse yourself in it. No matter how small you start out, because it kind of snowballs, you meet other people who are doing things in a similar field or for a similar cause.
And then they give you tips and they connect you with other people and other organizations. And it's, it's so great this day and age we live in. You can access everything on the internet and there's just groups for everything. There's so many groups for people who are wrongfully convicted or people who are advocates for people who are wrongfully convicted or whatever cause you know, that's near and dear to someone's heart. You can, there's so many resources you can find in so many groups you can join. Um, so I would definitely say just, just start getting involved for sure. And as far as a career change, what I did, because I realized that I had a major disadvantage at the age of 40, you know, um, so what I did is I joined as many master classes as I could.
And as many, um, like people did all kinds of whether it was longer courses or just like one hour webinars and things. And this is at the beginning of the pandemic. So everyone was stuck at home and it was our initial like, oh my God, we can't go anywhere. And so it was really interesting because filmmakers who are normally so busy and do, would normally not have the time were also stuck at home.
And so, so many of them were doing webinars and things that you could join that anybody could join. And so I. Interestingly helped my career because I was able to hop on these webinars with people like, um, Ramy from the show "Ramy", and stuff like that. And people who really know what they're doing, and you could just ask them questions and learn from their years of expertise.
And I think that was really helpful. So my advice would be to learn from the people who've already done what you want to do so that you can fast track your own learning and your own career.
Okay. Awesome. Yeah, I think that was kind of like us. We, we were always talking about true crime and they were like, let's just start a podcast.
And our first season was very much like us just kind of telling stories, but now we're like, we need to branch out. And so yeah, here we are. So I guess, um, yeah, that's interesting.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so great. Cause everything's so accessible nowadays, right? Like whether it be online classes or, you know, people and it's, it's fantastic.
Yeah. And there's like podcast, Facebook groups and things like that. Like, like people that are willing to reach out and help. So yeah. It's, it makes it a lot easier than I think it used to be. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Um, okay. So like I had mentioned earlier, um, The story of Rubin Carter was your first exposure or one of your first to like the world of wrongful convictions.
And I think everyone kind of has that one case that stands out as their very first, like real hard hitting eyeopener case. For me, it was like the Amanda Knox story. Um, I think everyone's familiar with that, how she was arrested and convicted and she had appeals, they were overturned, she was retried reconvicted and then finally got exonerated.
Um, but so her story was in the media so much as it was happening and it just got so much attention around the world. So how important is media attention in wrongfully convicted cases and how much of a difference does it make?
You know, I'm definitely not an expert in that. So I I'm, I'm not sure. Cause obviously it can go both ways.
As you mentioned with Amanda Knox, like trial by media is not a good thing for anybody because they don't really get a fair, fair shake as you know, as Amanda, obviously didn't. Um, but I do think then there's the other side of it, like "Making A Murderer", there was just, the viewership was just so crazy. And then people got so hooked on his case that I think he got a lot more, um, not only attention, but like now he's his, he's working with Kathleen Zelner.
I mean, who else would you want to work with? And she's just one of the best lawyers you could have if you've been wrongfully convicted. And I don't know that she would have been on that case had he not had this documentary or these two documentary series made about, about him. And so I think it can really go both ways.
Right. Um, I obviously think that media attention can really help your case if done right, which is why I chose to go into this genre and try and get people who've been wrongfully convicted a platform so that they can share their side of the story and have a voice, you know, given back to them if they've been silenced through, through incarceration.
But, um, it could definitely go the other way as well. If in Amanda's case you haven't had your trial yet. And then all of a sudden, you know, the masses start believing you did something you didn't do that can be really, really hurtful.
Yeah. W would you think the negative media is like more prevalent than the positive?
Or would you say there's like a it's even? Or what have you seen?
Uh, you know, it's so funny. Cause I think it's whatever world you put yourself in, right? Like people love negative sensationalized stories, like audiences love that. And so there is a lot of that put out there because obviously networks and whoever advertisers, everybody can make money because they get more viewership that way.
Right. Um, but then there's a flip side of it. Like the documentary world where most documentaries are usually hopefully reporting like the truth and the facts and trying to shed light on something that was either an injustice or what has something that went wrong. And so it's just, it's so funny. I feel like the people who are consuming that content can indulge in whichever direction they choose to. You know, it's almost that, like you can listen to Fox News and believe everything you hear there. Or you can listen to CNN and believe everything you hear there. And it can be the same story that's spun two completely different ways. And it's just really up to each individual, how they choose to and what they choose to believe in how they choose to take it all in, you know,
Okay. Yeah. That's such a good point, I guess it's like you, yeah. You have to decide kind of for yourself where you want to be, I guess.
Yeah. Like it's so funny because like Steven Avery or Adnan, for example, you go online and if you believe they're guilty, you're going to find 10,000 sites. Thousands of people that are on Reddit and everywhere talking about why they're guilty and here's all the proof that they think they have, you know, for their side of the story.
And then there's the flip side where you're going to find hundreds and thousands of people that are going to be like, they're innocent. And this is why. And so it's just wherever you choose to put your attention, it's going to kind of, uh, solidify your beliefs. I think, you know what, yeah,
Yeah. It's so interesting. You can watch a documentary. That's very biased on one side and then you can be convinced, but then you can go somewhere else and they're representing the other side and you're like, holy, like maybe not. So yeah. It's really important to, you know, con like definitely immerse both sides for any case, I think.
Yeah. So that's, that's definitely a really good point. Yeah.
And that's why I loved like the Undisclosed podcast that Rabia did because it had so much just like basic like facts. Right. So they focus so much on like what the actual facts of the case were. Um, and of course they were like all lawyers, so they all had that experience as well.
So. I don't know. I really liked that because it's different than just going on a forum and seeing, you know, a random person saying like, here's why he did it or whatever. Right. But like, when you listen to the Undisclosed podcast, like it's hard to dispute any of that stuff. Right. Cause it's all legitimate.
Yes. It's all fact-based, which is so awesome. And then not only that, I find that they often on Undisclosed, they're really good about presenting the facts and stating what happened or what didn't happen. But then they also even say some of you might think, and they'll sometimes even say the other side of their own argument and kind of explain why, you know, that couldn't have really happened and they use facts to, to outline those points, which I really appreciate.
Yeah. I was going to say, like, when I first heard about the Adnan story,, I have to admit that I was on like, yes, he's guilty side. But then when I watched the documentary, I'm like, okay, that's totally changed my mind. Like, he's not guilty. You should be out of jail. Like, it was crazy. Cause I was so convinced that he did it, but then I watched it and I was like, wow, this like totally changed my mind.
You know, it's so interesting because when I listened to Serial, like I think most of the world, and they did this on purpose because they're great storytellers at NPR, but they went back and forth. I went back and forth. I would listen to an episode and I was like, oh, maybe he did it. And then I would listen the next episode. And I'd be like, no, he's innocent and back and forth in my mind. But they that's how they unfolded the story for us on purpose because they wanted to hook listeners. Right. That's what they did. But there's some things that were really unfortunate in Serial, well, let me go back a second. By the last episode, I totally believed he was innocent, but during the process, I was also kind of going back and forth debating, which is what it was designed to do.
Right. That's why everybody got so hooked on it. But, um, going back after listening to Truth and Justice or Undisclosed, then you see things in Serial that were just kind of an error. Like for example, when Sarah Koenig and was it Ira Glass that did the drive from Adnan's high school to, um, I wherever it was Best Buy, I think it was Best Buy.
Right. They did the drive to see if it could have been done in 21 minutes or whatever the timeframe was. And they ended up saying, well, it could be done if it was like, you left right on time and you did all this stuff. And that was such a, I felt like that was kind of poor, you know, reporting or journalism because they had that whole thing about the school buses will be blocking the parking lot and the students couldn't leave in their car until the buses left and anyone who's ever been to school knows that buses can't leave in two minutes. There's no chance of buses pulling out two minutes. And they just kind of minused that out of the equation and said, well, if the buses were gone right away, then it was totally doable in this much amount of time.
And I feel like, what should have been said is, you know, with the buses, even on a conservative, um, you know, mathematical equation, let's say they took six minutes to leave and that's the fastest they could have ever left. Then he couldn't have made that drive. So there were things in Serial that I felt like just weren't said the way they should have been said if they were really focused on accuracy rather than trying to hook people into a good story. And that's like, my only criticism of Serial is that they were more focused on hooking people on a good story, then really, really paying attention to all the facts.
So were those kinds of things like purposeful, like they did that. Oh, to kind of make it a little bit more interesting or were they really like believed it?
I don't know, but it's hard for me to believe that. They're smart. They're really smart people. It's hard for me to believe that they would just be like, oh, but if the bus has just left right away, like just this all possible, anyone who's been to school knows it's not possible.
You know, I was, when I was sitting, I had a similar feeling and of course, Sarah Koenig is super talented and she's great. I'm not comparing her to this horrible lawyer that I'm about to mention. But, um, when we were, when we were at the post-conviction hearing, um, the prosecutor kept saying he, the prosecutor kept saying things like, oh, but you lied and said you were at to Asia, Asia McClain, the alibi witness for Adnan, she kept saying, oh, but you guys lied and said you were at the school library, but really were at the public library and the public libraries in the same parking lot as a school.
And all of the students refer to this library as the school library, which he very well knew he's from the same city, you know? And I, it was like, it was being spun a different way. And it's like, the facts were kind of being left out just to make his point, you know, which it's things like that that really bothered me because it's like, well, that's not really accurate.
And you're just saying it this way. Cause you're trying to win. And that's that shouldn't be the goal in any case. I mean, this is obviously is just the podcast, but when you're in court, the goal shouldn't be to win. The goal should be to find the truth. And so like, those things really bothered me in that, that one thing similarly bothered me in Serial, a couple things like that actually bothered me.
And you know, you said, you were saying that you. Thought he was guilty after you watched it. For me, it was really interesting because one of the reasons, one of many reasons I thought Adnan's not guilty at all is people were saying, oh, he lived, lived a double life because at home he was like, you went to the mosque and he was this good kid and whatever.
And then at school he was smoking weed and, you know, whatever, whatever, and he might have stolen some money from like the donation jar at his mosque and stuff like that. And as someone who's also Pakistani and South Asian, listening to this and who was also moved to Canada with immigrant parents, I was like, if you think living a double life makes him a murderer than everyone I know from my community is a murderer because like we all lived in this double life.
We all went to school. What was majority, majority Caucasian. And we were the only brown kids there and we wanted to fit in and we drank and we did drugs and we did all that stuff. And then we wore tank tops and whatever went home and made sure we had our sweaters on and weren't showing any skin and had no alcohol in the house and would sneak out at night and that didn't make us bad people.
We were just trying, we were just children trying to fit in and we were dropped into a whole different culture and a whole different society and we wanted to fit in and yeah, I felt, I feel like Adnan wasn't given that benefit of the doubt in the podcast.
And instead that was used to paint him as like, oh yeah, this double life, which wasn't the case at all. If you talk to any South Asian person who moved here with, with, with their parents, we all lived that life, you know, that doesn't make you a bad person. You're just trying to find your way and fit in, you know?
So that, that really made me think he's. Yeah.
And like, I, like I even mentioned, like in the episodes that we did about the Adnan case, I had mentioned that Serial is like a really good to like, introduce you to the case, but there's so many other things out there that maybe present the facts in a better way.
Cause like you said, it was meant to like hook people and like, did he, or didn't he like, you know, kind of like a, like a murder mystery sort of thing. Um, so I think like that's a good starting point, but it's by no means like the main place that people should look for the facts of that case,
for sure. And like, you know, I'm mentioning these little things. I mean, if it wasn't for that case, then Adnan wouldn't have the attention he has or the help he has. I mean, it was fantastic for him, you know? So it's definitely, uh, it's definitely more good than it is bad. That's
still a great thing for him. Of course. Right. It's like it was such a success, right? Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah. So Adnan had so much support from people outside of prison, but I mean, there's a lot of people who may have been wrongfully convicted that don't have that kind of support. They don't have this big story out there. They may not even have family or people to kind of like, um, stand up for them.
So who are like those people's advocates, um, outside of prison and like how difficult is it for lesser known cases to get a second look, especially after all appeals have been exhausted and like, is it important for the public to get involved and things like that. And how do they even know about these kind of cases?
You know, they wouldn't, and it's really interesting because it seems like it's nearly impossible for these unknown cases that don't have any media attention or don't have advocates we're working for them on the outside. It's impossible. And with the justice system though, you know, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not definitely an expert in any of the legalities of it. What I've heard from so many people is what's so challenging is that it's much easier to get a wrongful conviction than it ever is to get that overturned afterwards.
So you really have to get it right the first time, because after that, it's almost nearly impossible and you're stuck in the justice system and the, in the court cases and all of that. And the really scary thing is for people who are innocent when they do come up for parole. And this is something I learned during, um, filmmaking is when they come up for parole, if they don't show remorse and they don't say, you know, I'm sorry for what I did. And I was, I'm a changed person, or maybe I did this because of my circumstances at the time. But now I would be a good member of society. If they don't say things like that, they get denied parole. And the crazy thing about that is if you assert your innocence, you get denied parole because they say you're not showing remorse for what you did.
Like we know you're guilty. They start from that point where they're like, you've been convicted. We know you're guilty. And so for innocent people, it really, you know, it's kind of like a double-edged sword. It just hurts them more and more in the future and in the parole process, which is so sad because most of them, because they're innocent, don't want to say they did this horrific thing.
They didn't do. Even if it means it's going to help them get out of jail, 10, 20 years down the road, they still want to assert their innocence, which is the one thing they have to hold on to. So it's a really, you know, broken system in terms of wrongful conviction.
Yeah. Oh, sorry. I was just going to say, like, it is wild to think, like, you know, admit you're guilty and you may get out on parole, but say you're innocent and then you're you, won't like, it's so twisted.
Just think of it that way.
And as an innocent person can even imagine the mental hell that would be where you're just kind of trapped in this thing and nobody will believe you. And you know, you have to lie and say, you did this horrific thing in order to even have a chance at some of them looking at your case to get out in the future.
It's so messed up. I can't imagine how people who come out of it, which is why Jeff's case and Adnan's case and Rubin Carter's case are so fascinating to me. Um, how do they come out eventually and then be so nice and forgiving and not bitter and not angry. And, you know, In all three of those cases, all three of them have said that, that they're not angry. They're not bitter and that. And it's amazing to me.
Yeah. Yeah. I remember we had talked about this, one of our episodes, just how kind of broken the system is that way. Um, and how backwards it kind of is. And I can't, I just can't imagine like the hopelessness and the helplessness, some people must feel and yeah.
And once they get out how, you know, they're able to, like, I don't know, just like re-imagine their lives and be happy and move forward. So that is it's really, um, yeah. Exemplifies like strength for,
for, for real. It does. And its strength. I don't, I don't think I would have, but all these people seem to have it.
Yeah.
And that's actually something in your documentary that one of the things that struck me was when he mentioned that it was like a week after he got out was when he decided that he wasn't going to spend his life being angry or bitter. And to me that's so crazy. Like there's people out there who are a lot angrier for a lot less reason, right?
Like he has reasons to be angry and bitter. So the fact that he can like have the strength to just make that decision, um, is really admirable.
It is it's admirable. It's almost unbelievable, you know, but there must be something about this. I I've thought about this, just, you know, to myself before that there must be something about this experience of wrongful conviction that really puts everything into perspective for you.
And that's why you become this person who's not bitter and not angry. And because it seems like almost everybody that I've ever either known like Jeff or read about or heard speak like Adnan or whatnot, say the same thing. And everyone who's never been in prison, who I talked to about it says, oh, I would be so angry.
And I think I would be angry too, but it seems like most of the people who went through it aren't so there must be something about the experience that really, you know, gets that. Puts life into perspective and they're thankful for just having their life back and for being alive. And, you know, like Jeff says, he enjoys just like the sun on his face.
He enjoys just being outside because he wasn't able to even go outside. I think, I think it's in the short doc that you guys watched, it might be in the feature. Cause now I've been working on it for so long. It all kind of meshes together in my head. But Jeff said that after a while he stopped even going outside for his rec time, because he said that just get being put in handcuffs and like the whole physical, like body search and all that was not worth the little bit of time he got outside.
And so he just gave that up too. So, you know, it's no wonder he enjoys life and being outdoors so much now.
Yeah, I do remember that. So I think it was in that, in the short doc. So yeah, that's, it's crazy to think about.
You had provided us with like a stat that over a hundred thousand innocent people have been convicted of a crime that they didn't commit in there or in prison for it. So I'm just curious, like where that number came from and is that like in the states, is that overall? Um, I imagine it's like extrapolated from a bunch of different places, so.
Yeah. Like where did that stat come from?
Yeah, so that statistic is actually a very conservative number and it's what the innocence project has reported in the U S so that's just for America and they say about two and a half to, I think 5% of the US prison population is innocent. So that's about a hundred to 120,000 people.
And that's the most conservative number out of all the organizations that kind of do assessments for these kinds of statistics. There's other organizations like if you asked Jeff, for example, there's other organizations that say it's closer to 10, I think 10 to 15%. So if you go by those numbers, you can just imagine what, you know, a large number of people that would be.
And it's, it's crazy because I often think this and say this, that. People who haven't been personally impacted by wrongful conviction. Most people don't think of it as a cause that they need to get behind or a cause that, you know, you would like world hunger and things like that, that you would just, everyone is aware of, you know, that it happens in certain countries and stuff like that.
Wrongful convictions, I don't think is on most people's radar, unless they've been personally impacted or they've been affected by, you know, watching a movie or listening to podcasts, they get really, you know, behind a cause. And it's crazy to think that let's say it's a hundred thousand people. Let's say it's triple that it like other organizations, that's 300,000 people that many people being wrongfully convicted in prison impacts not only those people, but their entire families.
And then any of their friends and their, you know, wives, children, spouses, it's a lot of people that are, that would be impacted by this. Two to 5% who are wrongfully convicted, if it's even that low. Um, and I, I think it's a really important cause to get behind. That's why I w I love doing these films because I think it raises awareness just to an average person who may not think of this as being a big problem in any country, you know, Canada, the states or anywhere else.
Well, yeah, that's really interesting. And so that would just be like the number of people who have maybe like written to the Innocence Project. There could be others who maybe have think they have no hope and haven't even asked for help at all. So that right there, so could be like a lot on that
side, maybe.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
So, um, Do you know anything about like the patterns in the demographics for those who are wrongfully convicted and like, is there a disproportionate bias, stored any specific demographic
there is, there is. Um, I think it's, African-American men, I think, um, you know, I don't have the statistic in front of me and we'll have to Google it.
Yeah.
Um, so yet, while you're looking that up, like you said, it was African-American men. So I mean that, that's probably like systematic racism probably has a lot to do with that. What would you say, like interpersonal or personal racism has a lot to do with that as well? Like, I mean, people that are, um, you know, like lower income or immigrants and stuff kind of have less resources, so they would be a kind of a target for that kind of.
So what would you say are the factors behind that?
You know, I'm definitely not an expert in this area, so I don't want to speak to something that I wouldn't, you know, um, be the best person to, to answer these questions. But, um, definitely people who have less means and less income really get railroaded by the system. Like, for example, just what I know about Jeff's case.
He, his mom was a single mom. She had another son who was younger than Jeff. And so when Jeff got into this whole mess, it was very hard for her because she couldn't afford a lawyer. And so he got a court appointed lawyer and that lawyer did not do a good job at all. Ended up, I think leaving the case early on and they got another court appointed lawyer and the lawyer just, just wasn't good.
And that of course impacted the result of Jeff's case in court case. And then look what he had to go through because of it had, they had the means and the money to hire a top lawyer. Maybe Jeff wouldn't have spent any time in prison. There was DNA evidence to show his innocence. But if the, he had had a lawyer who was competent enough to, you know, use the evidence to show Jeff's innocence, then he might not even have gone through this.
And that happens to a lot of people, you know, who don't have the money to, to put up a good defense for themselves.
I was going to say, I find it really frustrating, like when you don't have money for a lawyer, and then they like, uh, they give you one, but they give you like the bare minimum lawyer. They don't give you like the best lawyer they can, they can have, I found that really frustrating for people who like, oh, it's because you can't afford one, but it's going to give you whoever out there. It really makes, makes me angry. Like, why not give them the better chance? Like everybody else? Why give them like a shitty lawyer? Because, because they don't have money. Why like, why put them through that? I find that so frustrating.
The rest of they're already starting behind, behind that, you know, just from the very beginning with the lawyer that they're given, right?
Yeah.
That's, that's just my little rant. I just find it really. I just find it really.
I always find it frustrating, like, like for people who just don't have the money, they just be like, okay, well you're already get you're already behind. You don't have enough money for whatever. So we're just going to give you whoever out there. Yeah. So annoying.
It is. It's terrible. It's, there's so many things in the, in the system, the justice system that could be corrected.
Oh, and the statistic I was talking about earlier, it's this it's innocent. Black people are seven times more likely to be wrongfully convicted of murder than innocent white. And seven times, and it was like, you know, 700% greater chance. It's yeah. I thought it was five. So I'm glad I looked it up. Cause it's actually seven. It's terrible.
Yeah, it really is. Yeah. So I guess like racism came up a little bit in Adnan's case, um, for both Adnan and Jay, I guess, like, so Jay's situation, he was interrogated by white police. He was a black teenager and they kind of threatened him with, um, I know we could transfer this case to the next county and it would there's the death penalty penalty there.
So I think that came up as well. Um, how so, and how has Jay's situation and like confession similar to Jeff's confession that ultimately led to his conviction? Like, are there patterns in these two cases and patterns, like in general that come up in false confessions?
Um, there are, um, again, you know, I'm not an expert in this, so I would, you know, I don't want to misspeak to any of this, but, um, there's a couple of things that I've learned through the filmmaking process actually, which have been really interesting.
One is when police or detectives are interviewing people and the person they're interviewing doesn't have any more facts or information than what the police already had. That's a really good sign that the person. Is not the right person there. They're only reiterating what you've already like, what the cops have already told them.
And they're reiterating it in their own words or, you know, slightly differently, but there's no new facts and what they're saying. And, uh, that was definitely the case for Jay, because Jay didn't know anything. He was just saying what the cops told him to say. And in Jeff's case, it's very different because of course, Jeff, they were coercing a false confession out of Jeff.
They were, they were manipulating Jay to say what they wanted so they could pin it on Adnan, so it's slightly different. But in Jeff's case, they fed Jeff a lot of details. They actually almost groomed Jeff for a couple of months. They took Jeff around to the crime scene. They showed him all kinds of told him and showed him all kinds of details about the case so that he would have this information.
And they did it over time. And he was only 16, you know, 16. You're not smart enough to navigate these things. And the day that they got the false confession out of Jeff, they didn't tell anyone where they were taking him. He didn't have a lawyer present. His mom didn't know where he was. They didn't take him to the normal police station.
They took him out of county to somewhere he'd never been before. They took him early morning and they had no food. They interrogate him for seven hours, seven and a half hours, I believe. And they fed him coffee the whole day. Jeff said he had never had coffee in his life. It was his first time. And he said he was really jittery, which that's what happens when I drink coffee.
Cause I'm not a coffee drinker. And so he said he had no food. He was starving. He was scared. Um, these cops that have pretended to be his friends for the last two months. Cause I guess the cops had said, um, you can help us solve this case because you know the kids at school all, and you know, you knew Angela who was murdered.
And so they. Painted this picture that Jeff could be like this, you know, detective like helping out the big guys kind of thing. And Jeff's, uh, dream back then was to be a cop. So he said he was really taken by this cause he was like, oh, it's an opportunity to work with real police officers, you know? And, uh, and yeah, so he, he went with them, not knowing that they were really just grooming him to pin it on him.
And then that day after seven and a half hours, they said, just tell us what we want to hear. Like tell us that you did it and we'll let you go home. And he said that after all that time, he just broke down and he didn't, he thought they'll really take him home. And so they just said what he wanted them to say.
Um, in Jay's case, it was very different because they told Jay. Like we could pin this on you pretty much, but we're going to, you're going to tell us what we want you to tell us about Adnan, and then you're going to get off. And then he, Jay had a laundry list of other offenses and they think they helped him, um, get off on all those charges as well.
He had, like, I think he's had an assault on a police officer and all kinds of other major things that he's never done any time for it because he has some kind of deal I think, going on. And so Jay did it for his own benefit. Right. Whereas Jeff was very different because he was a kid that was just being kind of railroaded by these detectives.
Is that considered police misconduct now? Like, was that, is that like a normal thing they could do? Or is that, was that like no reach police shouldn't do that anymore.
Yeah. I mean, it's a thing that happens often. Unfortunately, the definitely they shouldn't do it. I know that in some states, and I don't know which ones off the top of my head, but just very recently, um, some states pass laws where the police aren't allowed to lie to the person that they're interviewing in order to get them to say stuff.
Because in all of these situations, the police have lied to the person they're interviewing saying, oh, we already know that this happened. So just tell us. Or we already saw that there was, you know, like they told Jeff, like you failed the lie detector tests. So we know that you did it, but none of that was true.
They were just saying that to him, to freak him out and be like, I think they told him something like, uh, you already told us you did it through the results of the lie detector test, so now we just need to hear you say it out loud so that they could just have it, you know, have the confession. And so they're not in some states, there's finally laws being passed that they're not allowed to do those types of things, but in many states that's still allowed, which is again, so bizarre.
I always thought that was crazy that they could make a story. And then tell that to the person like, oh, someone saw you or, you know, your DNA's there when it's not true at all. Like I find that that's crazy. That's even still legal.
Yeah. It's crazy that that's legal because like in Jeff's case, and you know, the other thing is that prosecutors and police have immunity that they, they don't get charged with anything.
And that's also crazy because they're essentially committing a crime themselves. They're committing a crime by pinning this on an innocent person and putting them in jail for something they didn't do when they full well know, like Jeff didn't do this, that is a crime. And, but they don't, there's no consequences for them.
And I think that's part of what makes them keep doing it over and over. If they were scared that they themselves could end up in jail because they did this to somebody, then I think there would be a lot more self policing going on and they wouldn't do it as often. Right. Because they don't, they've seen what jail is like. They don't want to go there.
Yeah, I'm surprised there's not stricter laws for police officers and those kinds of things. Cause I know in Jeff's case, like there was blatant police misconduct regarding like the DNA evidence that came out. The police made a deal with the medical examiner to lie about why the reason there was no DNA from Jeff. And so like that came out, that's not allowed.
The way the system works, they just got off scot-free and did all the damage they did to Jeff's life. But then when Jeff actually got out, which, you know, most people don't get out. So it's very small, small, small percentage of time that this even happens. But when Jeff finally got out, um, he took them to civil court. And he won. I mean, you know, but there was that 16, 17 years, 18 years later, you know? Um, but they've already had a whole career they've already done because they were adults when they did it to Jeff at 16. it's, it's terrible. It's terrible.
It really is. I like, um, I'm trying to wrap my head around. Why, like, do you think they knew Jeff was innocent and they were just kind of pushed us along because like, if they knew he wasn't, then there's somebody out there that could do this again.
Right? Like why would that not be their main concern?
Yeah, they absolutely had to know, because if they didn't know, they wouldn't have asked the medical examiner to lie. Right. Because then they would've wanted, they would've been like, oh wait, the DNA doesn't match crap. Let us go see who it does match or let us use this great evidence that we have to try and solve this case.
But they didn't. They were like, okay, let's hide that information. So they had to have known. Right. And I can only speculate because of course they still stick by the story till this day and say that they thought Jeff really did it because of course they're not going to admit that they're corrupt. Um, but I think they absolutely knew, um, for one and for two, I've always thought the exact same thing you said, it's like, why would they want this murderer on the streets?
And the crazy thing is Peekskill where this happened was a super safe town. I think they hadn't had, um, any homicide in over two decades. And they lived in this town. So if, for no other reason, but to just keep your own town safe and your own family safe wouldn't you want to get the murderer off the streets.
And that has always just really, um, boggled my mind, because I would think, you know, you chose to be a police officer in your city. Don't you want to keep your city safe? I, that just seems like a no brainer, but obviously they were more concerned with solving the case and getting promotions and their own personal gain then keeping the city safe and the real murderer off the streets.
Wow. Yeah. That, yeah, I guess it's like, it's good for their career. They get a fast arrest, you know, um, Rather than keeping the public safe. Like that's, it's crazy to me. Um, like the DNA, they tested that again. It was years later and that's what got Jeff out because they found who really did it. When, when there's new advances in technology or these kind of cases, would they automatically use older DNA for older cases?
Or would somebody have to kind of be like, test this again? Or does it, is it like an automatic thing? Do you know anything about that? I
don't know, but I'm almost sure it's not an automatic thing. Somebody has to say, test this again. They're so reluctant to do these things automatically. It seems in the states anyways, because it'll just inundate the court system and they can't handle it.
They can't, you know, they just can't go back and be like, oh, we got to check all of these again, which is so unfortunate because it's people's lives. But, um, I don't think any of that happens automatically, except for, you know, like right now, and this is impacting Adnan's case. So you guys might know this already, but in Maryland, a law just recently passed that, um, juvenile, juvenile offenders who got life, can be re-sentenced because that's inhumane or something like along those lines. And so that is actually, you know, kind of, I don't wanna say automatic, but anybody who was under age at the time of their conviction can now request this and, you know, get back in the court system. So, but again, I think that's being initialized by the person who was convicted.
They won't just automatically do it for everybody. Okay. I think, yeah. Yeah.
So, and Jeff was tried as an adult, even though I think he's, um, 16 in New York, you're considered an adult in the court system. I think I was watching, uh, another thing with Jeff and I think he'd mentioned 16 or 17. You're considered an adult.
Like, how do make that determination between, oh, we're going to try you as an adult or we're going to gonna try you as a kid. Oh, where's
that line? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know at all. I know that I don't even know about the law in New York that you were mentioning, but I know that when the crime occurred for J for Jeff, like when the real killer killed Angela. Jeff was 16 by the time he was in court and went to prison, he was 17. So I don't know what the age is to be considered an adult in New York, but I know it happens all the time. Like, I'm sure you guys know in Adnan's case, for example, even though his birthday was written wrong.
So they like, for a while they thought he was 18. I mean, it's ridiculous. But he was also tried as an 18 year old, not a 17 year old and things like that, just so unfortunate.
So yeah, I think we're almost wrapped up here with our last questions. Um, Arthur we're right on time too. Um, are there any resources available for prisoners once they get out of jail in terms of like rehabilitation or life skills assistance, and specifically any that are focused on those who have been wrongfully convicted
there isn't there isn't and that's one of the really challenging things. Um, you know, people get out of prison, especially people who are innocent and they're so looking forward to. The life they've been wanting, which is to be out of prison. And then they get out and they don't have money. They don't have a place to live. They don't have anywhere to go out for a lot of them.
They've lost contact with all their friends and sometimes even family cause they're in there for so long and it becomes so difficult, um, to stay in touch and to visit them. And you got to go through the whole process of getting into a prison, which you know, is not, is not fun at all. I'm sure. And then in a lot of cases, um, peop the prisoners are moved around from prison to prison, to prison.
And so sometimes they're moved to other like, you know, hours and hours away, outside outside of their cities. And so family members can't always visit. So a lot of them lose contact with even family. And then when they're get out of prison, they just, they have nothing, which is in a lot of cases why they end up, you know, Back to a life of crime back in, or not even back to a life of crime, sometimes just a new life of crime or sometimes homeless or, or what have you, because there are no, no resources, unfortunately
for most people
It's almost like getting out of prison is half the battle. Another whole other battle starts.
Yes, you're exactly right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Cause I guess you wouldn't have any, especially in Jeff's case, like you go, when you're 17, you don't ever really have any like work experience. You don't have college, you don't have like that the communication skills that you would have.
Um, so yeah, I can't imagine how tough that would be. It's really unfortunate.
It was like literally on the verge of becoming homeless, except for then he got into a college that gave him a scholarship, I think. And they ended up giving him, um, very, very inexpensive dorm room to stay in. Otherwise he, he said he was about to be homeless himself.
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jeff's story's so amazing.
Yeah. It's a remarkable story. I
just had one, I guess probably the final question, but is there anything you can tell us about like the feature length documentary? Um, like what other things you'll be exploring in that, in the feature?
Yeah. Yeah. So as you guys know, when you watch the short documentary, it really focused on, um, reintegration into society. And really the one that main question I was trying to answer is what is it like for an innocent person to reenter society after they get out of prison? And how did that impact his, you know, future life, everything that happened after he was released, um, the feature length doc is, you know, an hour, half an hour and a half long, and it goes much deeper into how this happened, why this happened, how do people give false confessions when you know, they are admitting to something they didn't do.
And the psychology behind that. And I got to talk to some really great experts in people from the Innocence Project about this. Fascinating. Um, we talked to the lawyers who actually got Jeff out, who work at the Innocence Project. Um, and so we, we, uh, get to hear about what that process was like for them.
And for Jeff, like both sides with the Innocence Project was doing while Jeff was still in prison and what his first day out was like. And then we go into detail about the DNA and why it was allowed to be tested because Jeff had been asking for years for it to be tested and he was denied every time.
And at the time the Westchester DA was Jeanine Pirro,and she denied Jeff's, uh, DNA testing over and over again. If it had been tested the first time he asked, I think Jeff would have saved a good five years off of it. Of his prison time. But so we go into that, like when there's DNA available, why does the justice system not allow these people to have a test in, or even an opportunity for someone to say no, you know, like watching it just automatically be tested.
So it just goes a lot deeper into not only Jeff's personal life, but the justice system and how this happened and why this happened, why this occurs,
oh, is that going to be available in Canada?
You know, it's so funny that you asked that I would love for it all to be available in Canada. It's a longer conversation, but Canada has, it's been such a weird thing for me being Canadian, living in the states, Canada has these Canadian broadcast laws.
And I fall like in this weird loophole where they're not considering me Canadian, as far as the content I create goes in the states, but yet I'm not American. I don't have American citizenship. I'm only Canadian. And so I'm, I fall into this weird place where they don't consider my. Canadian. Wow. That's interesting.
Yes. So I've had a hard time getting, um, uh, broadcast it, broadcasted here, which I'm still working on. So I hope to have both the short and the feature broadcasted in Canada, you know, if, and when I can get that done.
Yeah. Sorry. I know that, I know I said the other one was the final question, but I did just want to ask one final, um, I guess if there was like one overarching like message from the documentary or from Jeffrey's story that you could just kind of like, what is like the overall message you would just say,
oh God, you know, there's, there's so many, I guess, I guess Jeff's story in particular.
Um, I guess there's two things on it for me on a personal level. The whole reason I started making this documentary and told Jeff story is because I wanted to help people, like Adnan,people that were in Adnan's position. And so my personal goal is to help people who are currently incarcerated wrongfully and help tell their stories or in any way that I can assist them, even if it's just giving them a platform to tell their side of the story.
Um, that's really what I want to do. And that's the message I want to convey is those people's message and see how like the public and other people can help them. Um, and as far as Jeff goes and my documentary goes, I think the, the biggest thing that I always take away from it and the message is that.
Any, it was just so much perseverance and Jeff just has so much heart and I love this, this, this human triumph story that no matter what you're put in, whatever position you're put into, like Jeff was just put in the worst position, worst place ever. But he came out of it, not only freeing himself, but becoming this like champion and advocate for so many other people and just doing such great things with his life.
And I just love that, that message, you know, and that's like, Jeff's life message, I think. And I just, I so admirable and I, I think he's just done such an amazing job. And so he's done so much with so little and something. Most people I don't think could do and could accomplish.
Yeah. So is that,Katie is that all all the questions you had or Stephanie, did you have anything?
No, I just want to say like, like I'm just, it was really interesting hearing your like side of things. Like that's why I didn't really talk much because I was so interested into what you had to say. Like, it was really good. I really enjoyed your interview and your talk.
Oh, thanks guys. Welcome.
Yeah, thanks so much. Good luck with your, with everything we look forward to seeing. What else you, uh, you do.
I'll definitely share it with you guys, even before it broadcasts. I can share it with you guys. Yes, yes, absolutely. And, uh, and yeah, sorry, I didn't have a, too many of them. I never want to present myself as an expert in this cause I'm not, I didn't know a lot of facts and stuff that you're asking.
I wish I did. I, so I hope I didn't let you down
there. No, no, no. It was great,
good discussion. Right? Like even, you know, it's good to just hear your perspective if you're not an expert, but hearing your perspective from like the filmmaking side too. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Um, so yeah. Thank you so much.
Yeah, for sure. For sure you guys, it was a pleasure and let's keep in touch whether on email or social or wherever. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Sounds good.
So very special thank you to our guest Jia Wertz. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to come and chat with us on our podcast.
So you can follow Jia on Instagram @Jiadocs, you can also visit her website at JiaWertz.com to get some more information on the film and check out some of the other stuff that she's doing. And if you're in the U S you can watch her, you can watch "Conviction", the short documentary that we referenced in this episode, it is on Amazon prime in the U S and hopefully it will be distributed in Canada soon.
And you can look out for the full length feature of the same story coming out later in the year. Thank you so much for listening in on our three-part premiere episode, we really hope you've enjoyed listening. We hope that you learned something about this case, and we are very excited that we were able to interview two, um, very key people in this story and in the telling of this story.
And we're very excited about that. And we have so much more coming up for you this season on Crime Family. So look forward to other guests in the future, and we're going to have some really good conversations and we're going to tackle some really, um, interesting topics and some really intriguing cases in the coming weeks.
So once again, thank you so much for listening for this three parter. We hope you enjoyed it. And as always, you can follow us on Instagram @crimefamilypodcast. We're on Twitter @crimefamilypod1, and we do have Facebook as well. You can follow us on our Facebook page at Crime Family Podcast, and we do have a Gmail account.
So yeah. You know, if you have any case suggestions or some feedback for us, definitely send us an email at crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com. Thank you so much for all of your support over the first season and over the hiatus. And we hope that that support continues as we continue to cover interesting cases and bring you some good content.
So thank you so much. Take care, and we'll see you next week.