Crime Family

S02E11: THE CULT AT SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE

November 24, 2021 AJ, Katie & Stephanie Porter Season 2 Episode 11
Crime Family
S02E11: THE CULT AT SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE
Show Notes Transcript

**TRIGGER WARNING: THIS EPISODE CONTAINS TOPICS SUCH AS  ATTEMPTED SUICIDE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT THAT MAY BE TRIGGERING FOR SOME LISTENERS. PLEASE USE DISCRETION WHEN LISTENING TO THIS EPISODE.**

In the fall of 2010, Talia Ray and her friends lived on campus at Sarah Lawrence College, a private liberal arts school in Yonkers, New York. When her father Larry gets released from prison and comes to live with the students on campus, the events that would allegedly unfold are so horrific and have all the makings of a modern-day cult.

Allegedly, through a series of group therapy sessions, deep philosophical conversations and insidious brainwashing, Larry hijacked the lives of this group of college students and exploited them for his own nefarious means. The details in this case are so shocking, you have to hear it to believe it.

Using details from 'Slonim Woods 9', a memoir written by Daniel Barban Levin (one of the cult's victims) and a New York Magazine article that broke in 2019 which revealed the level of depravity in this case to the world,  this episode tells the story of a man's extreme power and influence over a vulnerable group of college students who turned to him for guidance to overcome their personal struggles- a decision that changed the course of their lives forever.

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EPISODE RESOURCES:

New York Magazine: 'Larry Ray and the Stolen Kids of Sarah Lawrence' by  Ezra Marcus & James D. Walsh:
https://www.thecut.com/2020/02/larry-ray-sarah-lawrence-students.html

'Slonim Woods 9' by Daniel Barban Levin:
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/634501/slonim-woods-9-by-daniel-barban-levin/

The New York Times: 'Sarah Lawrence Student Seen as Cult Victim is Now Charged':
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/01/nyregion/lawrence-ray-sarah-lawrence-cult.html

New York Magazine: "What Happened to the Stolen Kids of Sarah Lawrence?:
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/larry-ray-sarah-lawrence-kids-update.html

People Magazine: "Former Student Once Thought to be Victim of Alleged Sarah Lawrence Sex Cult is Now Charged in Case:
https://people.com/crime/ex-student-charged-alleged-sarah-lawrence-sex-cult/

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 So, Larry shows up and begins living on the campus with this group of students and nobody else on campus or at the college seemed to really notice that any of this was happening. And once he moves in, the events that would then unravel and the suffering that these students would endure was nightmarish.

But what was happening was that Larry was basically playing both sides and was participating with the mafia in the very scheme that he was supposed to be helping the FBI uncover. 

It's one thing to have this guy living in your dorm room. So yeah, you're going to listen to him and he's right there. It's another thing to like, drop your life and fly across the country for this guy. Like that's totally different and so crazy that he had that kind of power over somebody. 

According to family and friends, only Santos tried to take his own life before meeting Larry. Since then, Isabella, Yalitza and Claudia have all attempted suicide. 

They show up at the door, he wouldn't let them in. Then my next thing would be like, okay, I'm going to go to the police. Like, I'm not going to pay you all this money for three years and not doing anything about it.

Hi, everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of Crime Family. So for those of you tuning in to the, for the first time, or if you're not super familiar with the show, I am your cohost AJ and I'm here with Stephanie and Katie. And this week I'm going to be telling you pretty crazy case. A case so depraved so strange, and yet it doesn't really have a ton of any mainstream press attention, or at least not the attention that you'd expect for a case that's as crazy as this one.

Um, and that's the story of Larry Ray and the cult at Sarah Lawrence college. Are you guys aware of this case at all or know anything about it? 

No, I didn't do too much digging into it cause, cause I didn't want to kind of like ruin the story for myself. Um, I do know that it kind of happened within the last 10 years and things just kind of came out super recently, so it always makes it, I dunno, maybe a little bit more interesting when it's recent because when you think of cults, you think of like decades ago, but this is a recent one. So yeah. Interested to find out more. 

I didn't really look into this case cause I kind of wanted to hear it for the first time. Um, but like I, but like Katie said, I did, like, I know, I know it is a recent case and I like, I don't know, I don't know a whole lot of on it. So I'm interested to learn about it. 

Yeah. So I actually stumbled upon this case randomly online, like back in the spring. I was actually looking at possible cases to cover for the show and stuff. And I actually just saw like a book that was listed on Amazon called "Slonim woods 9" and I read the synopsis of the book and it completely hooked me in. And then when I dug a little bit deeper into the details of the case that was featured in the book, it was like so crazy and unbelievable to me that, and I couldn't believe that it wasn't like a huge news story that like everyone would know about. Um, like typically a case this bizarre would be all over the media, but not this one.

Um, so. While it wasn't major headlining news, it did get a little bit of attention for the first time back in 2019, when New York magazine published an online story called "The Stolen Kids of Sarah Lawrence" by Ezra Marcus and James D. Walsh. So this article is where a majority of the information about this case comes from, like, there are a few podcasts out there, um, and some other news articles as well, but the bulk of the information I'll be providing, um, in this retelling of the story is from this article as well as the book that's recently come out like that same book I saw on Amazon, it's called "Slonim Woods 9" by Daniel Barbin Levin.

And he was actually involved in the cult. Um, so the book is his story, his perspective on it. So those are the two main sources that I'm going to be drawing information from among a few others. So with that being said, let's get into it. Um, so Sarah Lawrence college is a private liberal arts college in Yonkers, New York and back in the fall of 2010, which is when this kind of all starts, there's a student named Talia Ray, and she was just beginning her sophomore year at the school. And she lived on campus at Slonim Woods #9 and New York magazine article describes it as a quote "drab, two story brick dorm in the middle of campus" end quote. Talia was living in this building with a few of her other college friends. I believe it was an eight bedroom dorm like house or something. I don't know the exact amount, but, um, she was living there with her other college friends and a few of them were Daniel, Claudia, Santos and Isabella. And they're like the four major people that are involved in, in the story. So, so throughout their like first year and the summer leading up to this, um, when the group met Talia, she had really impressed the group with stories about her father frequently.

And, you know, she was just telling them so much about him. And I feel like I kind of had the vibe that her group of friends almost felt like they came to know a lot about her father, just based on the stories that she would tell about him. So they'd never met him, but they kind of felt like they did through her stories.

I guess that's kind of the vibe I got anyway. So just a little backstory about Talia. So, she had a difficult upbringing. Her parents had divorced in 2004 when she was 15. And around that time, her mother Teresa called the police to say that her husband Larry, which was Talia's father had hit her. But when the police arrived at the scene, it was Larry and Talia who accused Teresa of actually being the one committing the abuse, or the child abuse.

So Theresa received numerous complaints against her in this regard. And Talia also accused other family members of similar abuse. So at that time, Larry was granted temporary custody of Talia due to these allegations. And then Larry proceeded to set up websites and blog pages that were dedicated to trashing Teresa and her family regarding the child abuse claims.

So on these websites, he posted letters that had allegedly been written by Talia to her mother, saying things like quote," you were the single most dangerous thing to me in my entire life" end quote. Ultimately the abuse claims against Theresa were determined to be unfounded by law enforcement and nothing ever really came of these allegations.

But after an investigation into these claims, it was determined that Larry had manipulated Talia into making these abuse allegations. And during a psychological evaluation of Larry during this process, he was considered impossible to evaluate because of his incredible ability to control and manipulate any situation he was put into.

He was deemed quote, "calculating, manipulative and hostile", according to the forensic examiner. So sometime after all of this, Larry was brought up on charges that were related to the child custody dispute, and he ended up going to prison and this left Talia with no choice, but to end up living at youth shelters, like she didn't really have much of a relationship with her mother, obviously, due to all that stuff that happened with these allegations.

And now her adoring father was now behind bars. So she didn't really have anywhere to turn to. And so by, by two, the fall of 2010 Talia had been really through a lot with all of that. And, um, had no relationship with her mother or many other members of her family, except for her dad who was at that time still in prison.

Um, so I'm not really sure, like obviously like Sarah Lawrence is a private liberal arts schools, so obviously she has money. So she was living in youth shelters, but it wasn't really out of like, like sh that she didn't have money to find housing. It was more just like not to be with her mother, but I don't really know exactly who like paid for her school.

I'm assuming probably her father since he did have quite a bit of money. So I think that's how she kind of ended up at the school. Cause you think, you know, she's living in youth shelters, you know, she might not have the means, but I think she was fairly, fairly well off, she's at the school. So in the fall of 2010, uh, Talia told her college roommates that she was living with the amazing news.

Um, she said that her dad was being released from prison and that he was going to come and stay with them for a while because he had nowhere else to go. And I guess like the impression I got was like the group wasn't really phased by this. Um, like now, now from the outside, looking in, it seems highly strange that your roommate's father would come out of jail and then crash in his daughters, in his daughter's dorm room with all her college friends.

Um, but I suspect that because Talia had told the group so many fascinating stories about her dad and how accomplished he was like, they were kind of looking forward to having him there, or they were just kinda easygoing and went along with it to appease Talia because, um, it also describes the Talia was kind of like the leader of their group.

Like she was the one who organized the housing and like got them this place that they were all staying in and she was just kind of that sort of outspoken like leader kind of person. So, um, I think they just kind of like followed her lead, like typically in a lot of things. And I guess they just followed with this.

But I would be super sketched out if like my roommate was like, you know, my father is being released from prison and is going to come stay with us, like in a college dorm. 

I think too, maybe though, because he wasn't jailed because it wasn't something violent. It was, it was because of the custody battle. So it wasn't like he hurt anybody or he went out and like robbed the store. It was like he was fighting for his daughter. So it was kind of like, well, he's not a bad guy. 

Yeah. Yeah. And. Like, I think it's clear early on when she it's implied that early on during that investigation that he was, you know, highly manipulative. So he kind of like manipulated Talia into turning against her mother and like, like claiming that she had abused her and all of this stuff that wasn't proven to be true. I don't know the extent of that, but it seems like she was kind of under his spell for Vera from very early on. So even though he went to prison, she was still very much like enamored with him and.. 

Yeah, like she probably backed him up on a lot of things. And even if they weren't true, you know, he probably kind of convinced her that he wasn't the bad guy here and she'll, she probably of course told her friends all that and they believed her. So yeah, it's, it doesn't seem that unbelievable if you think about it like that. 

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's too, it's like, it was always painted as if he was the victim in all of it. Like he got put into jail because of this, like conspiracy of his ex-wife and all of that stuff. So I guess that's how they're kind of looking at it too. 

Yeah. I was thinking like maybe they, maybe they did have. Problem or they didn't want him to stay with them, but just be, like you said, she was the leader of the pack. So maybe they kind of felt like they needed to like listen to her and needed to follow her lead, even though they might not have wanted him to stay there. They just kind of agreed with him, with her anyways. Like kind of like maybe they were afraid to speak up. I'm not sure. It just seems really odd that they would be like, oh yeah, you father, you can come stay with us. It's just weird to me. 

Yeah. Yeah. And like, I guess it's like just the fact that it's like on campus itself is just weird. It's like, I mean, like fine. If he's coming to stay over for a weekend or something, and is going to crash on the couch. But like the fact that he's going to move in, like bring all of his belongings and just move into this college campus, like it's just super strange.

Did they have to like, tell like the administrators of the college that he was going to stay with them? 

No. 

Oh.

 I feel like I'll probably not allowed no matter who it is and adults not allowed to like chill there. 

Yeah. Like that's what I mean, like. There was some of the administrative rule or whatever. Like, I feel like they wouldn't be able, he wouldn't be able to stay there, but the fact that there wasn't one kind of makes sense why he was. 

Yeah. And I'll get into a little bit about like what the college has to say, but all of it later on, but yeah. Obviously no one knew that it was happening. Um, so yeah, it's just, I don't know.

It's just super weird. This is like a 50 year old man. It's just like, I don't know. It's strange. Again,we can kind of justify it from, I guess, the student's perspective and like obviously Talia's perspective but like, I don't know. It's just, to me, it's like super red flags right from the beginning.

So Larry shows up and begins living on the campus with this group of students and nobody else on campus or at the college seem to really notice that any of this was happening. And once he moves in, the events that would then unravel and the suffering that these students would enter was nightmarish.

 So I'm going to go in a little bit to a little bit of the backstory of Larry himself, just to give you some context of like the type of person Larry is, it'll give you an, a more of an idea of like, just how powerful or manipulative this man is so, um, and I think it's important to like understanding all of it.

So, like I said, Talia had told her friends about all these accomplishments that Larry had. And to say that Larry has an interesting backstory is an understatement. So the New York article says that Larry sort of quote "had lived on the blurry edges, both professionally and socially for most of his adult life.

He hung around politicians, top military officials, restaurant tours, and business owners." That was just the type of crowd that he found himself in just kind of seemed like he was the type of guy that would just always like meet these people through. Couldn't really no inexplainable reason. Like you just kind of ended up in these situations with these like very powerful people, but Larry sort of had a reputation for telling a lot of lies or grossly exaggerating various details of his life.

So he would tell over the top stories and he kind of became notorious for these tall tales, but the article describes that the lies that he would tell, like he was kind of clever with it because the lies that he would tell would be mixed with some details of truth. So nobody could really like determine what was actually true and what wasn't.

And like, there were certain details that people knew were true. Like if you had a certain like ranking or have the certain jobs, so like they knew that was true. So then it kind of made everything that followed it seem plausible, even though some of it might've been exaggerated or completely fabricated.

It was just kinda one of those people. And I think, I don't know. I feel like a lot of people know that someone in their life that just kind of like tells these tall tales and people are kind of questioning like the legitimacy of the information. Um, he was described as a chameleon by people who knew him.

He could play up different parts of his personality or exaggerate different details about his life, depending on who he was talking to. He was charming and very convincing. And he dabbled in various industries. He worked on wall street in the eighties. He had stints in the insurance, finance, construction and gambling industries, and he knew a lot of people in high places.

He was in the air force for a very short time in the early eighties. And in the early nineties, he was working with the CIA on top secret missions in Russia and Kosovo, allegedly. The New York magazine article goes into much more depth about his various connections to Russian and US politicians, actors, and possible members of the mafia.

But I won't get into all of those details here, but I'm just going to put a link to the full story in the show notes so that you can read it because it's very fascinating. I think that article in total, is like 30 pages or something. It's a really long article, but it's goes into like so much detail about all these different connections that he had, which is really fascinating. But there's one particular relationship that he had that I think is the most important one that I want to touch on.

So this relationship was with a man named Bernie Kerrick and when Larry and Bernie met back in 1995, Bernie was an NYPD police detective.. And the two hit it off immediately and became very close. And Larry was a best man at Bernie's wedding only a few years later. So at one point in time, Larry used his various military and political connections to help Bernie's career advancement.

So there was one time, um, Larry was able to arrange a meeting between some Russian politician and New York mayor, Rudy Giuliani, as a favor to Bernie. And so then Giuliani promoted Bernie to commissioner of the department of corrections for NYPD. So like Bernie being in the NYPD worked closely with the mayor and he probably said like, Larry, you know, this Russian politician, can you get him in to meet with mayor?

Um, as a favor to me, and then Larry would do it. And then that kind of helped Bernie gain favor with Rudy Giuliani and all these other politicians. So he kind of worked his way up that way. Um, and then a little bit later on, Larry got involved in this whole mess. He was acting as an FBI informant. He claimed that he had some very important mafia connections and that he could help the FBI and he could bring some information to light that would help them with like an investigation into this undercover operation that was happening.

So, but what was happening was that Larry was basically playing both sides and was participating with the mafia in the very scheme that he was supposed to be helping the FBI uncover. So he used his participation in the FBI sting operation to cover up his own involvement in the scheme. And then when all of that went awry and he got discovered for that, he was brought up on charges that related to this.

And at this time, once he got into this whole mess, his good friend, Bernie Kerik refuse to help him. And now at this time, Bernie was now the police commissioner of the NYPD which is one of the most powerful positions in the entire NYPD so he's a very high up, and this was all happening in the early two thousands.

And, uh, Bernie was known on the national stage at this point because he was the top police commissioner in the aftermath of 9/11. So he was making a lot of like television appearances, obviously after 9/11, he's like the New York police commissioner. So he's doing interviews about like, you know, the effect of the attacks on the city and stuff like that.

So a lot of people like know who he is, so. And I would assume it doesn't really say this, but I'm assuming, like he didn't want to help Larry in this position that he was in because you know, he was in such a good spot professionally and politically and helping Larry who was now like a disgraced and crooked FBI informant, like would likely be professional suicide for him.

You know, he kind of like, I feel like Larry probably thought that, oh, now he's too good for me. I helped him get to where he is and now I need him. He's like wanting Bernie to like, you know, help him in these charges, to put in a good word for him with like the district attorney and all of that stuff to try to get them out of this, these charges that he was facing.

But then Bernie would refuse to do it. Um, so this was a huge betrayal for Larry and caused their friendship to pretty much end. But, um, Larry wasn't done with Bernie and this is in the article. They know this is kind of where Larry sort of took a bit of a turn instead of becoming like the person that he used to be, he became a lot more vengeful, a lot more vindictive, maybe as a result of this, or maybe he had that in him before, but this kind of set him over the edge. 

Yeah, so Bernie probably knew that Larry was wrong and he did it on purpose and that, you know, what he did was illegal. So why would he stick his neck out for someone that he know that he knew like did that purposely, you know what I mean? Like it's not worth it for him, for sure. He's not going to be like a shady cop to help a shady friend. So yeah. 

Yeah. Like he, you know, he knows his friend has just been caught doing this horrible thing. He's like facing prison time. He's not going to go out on a limb and say, oh, I defend him. I'm going to help get him off. Like, obviously he would probably lose his, you know, he's gonna lose his like top position. So like, why would you do that? But I guess in Larry's eyes, it was like, well, I helped you get to that, that position. So now, you know, now is your time to like have my back kind of, um, I mean, I'm just, that's like my own, like thinking, I don't know if that's for sure what he thought, but I'm assuming that's he thought like, oh, what's the, you know, I have a friend and like in the NYPD who can help me. Um, but he kind of refused. 

Yeah, maybe that was his thinking, doing all this. He's like, oh, I have someone that can totally like get me out of any situation I get myself into, so it really doesn't matter what I do. He could have been thinking that as well. So, you know, screw him. 

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, no one I would think would really, like, it's not shocking that Bernie

wouldn't help Larry out,.I mean, obviously, who would? Um, when your friend just did something super shady and like, you know, it was shady. But yeah, so like I said, that kind of causes their friendship to end, but Larry wasn't quite done with Bernie yet.

 And a few years later after all of this happened, there was a news story that like broke that actually outlined a series of corruption allegations and like improprieties that actually led to Bernie's own public downfall and a three-year stint in prison.

So Bernie had his own stuff. He was like having affairs. He did a bunch of illegal things like financially. So he was a corrupt cop basically. So he wasn't like this stellar guy that I think he was presenting himself as, but Larry was the major source in that news article.That, like, exposed  all of this. So it was fairly obvious that I think Larry was doing it out of revenge. He's like, well, you didn't help me with these charges. And now I'm going to like rat you out for all this stuff. But then when they did an investigation, Bernie ended up being in jail for three years, himself, so.

Oh, okay. So I guess he wasn't as like straight edge that was thinking, but also having an affair isn't isn't illegal either. I hate when everyone's like, oh, he had an affair. Like they drag that in and that's not illegal. 

Like, I think he was kind of put up on a pedestal after 9/11,  like he was kind of seen as like, he's the police commissioner. He's like helping the people, like, you know, in the healing after 9/11, so like, he was kind of like seen in a positive light. So I think like the fact that he's having an affair and he's doing all of this stuff, like just shows it, he wasn't like it didn't live up to the image that I think was projected of him. Um, But, yeah, it's fairly obvious. I think Larry just did that out of, he was vindictive about it. He was just trying to do it to get back at Bernie for not having his back.

So this is why a couple of years after when Larry and Theresa, like his ex wife Teresa were in the midst of, you know, those abuse allegations and that child custody hearing and stuff that I told you about before, Larry was convinced that Bernie Kerik had teamed up with Theresa and Rudy Giuliani to use the family court against him.

So he says that Bernie was out for revenge due to Larry's role in his public downfall and all of that stuff. But then other times he also, he mixed that with other allegations and he says that it was actually Bernie, who was in cahoots with president George W. Bush, vice president, Dick Cheney, and Rudy Giuliani, who were trying to silence him because of apparant knowledge that he had about the 9/11 attacks that they didn't want to get out.

So that's what he says is that there's whole thing. So everything that comes up in this article, all links back to Bernie. He thinks it's a huge conspiracy. Bernie's like out to get him after, you know, Larry did that thing to him or everything always comes back to this big conspiracy that they're out to get me.

I know stuff about 9/11, that they're trying to keep secrets. So crazy. So now, you know, have a little bit of an idea of who Larry is and a little bit of what his past is. And like I said, the article goes into much more detail about all of that. So if you're intrigued and you want to know even more. Cause I just kind of scratched the surface with all of that, there's like Russian politicians and like people overseas and the mafia, people like it's really crazy. So, um, obviously I couldn't, I didn't have time to get into all of that here, but I just wanted to kind of give you a little bit of background on the kind of person that Larry is.

 So was he actually involved with all these groups and people, or was it just kind of him being like, you know, this is how important I am and that kind of thing? 

But I don't know, like obviously he did like it, it was true. Like in the article it actually says that he even had connections. Like he set up a meeting between some politician and actor, Robert DeNiro, and he was able to like get them. It was like weird. So he does know these people somehow. Um, but like I said, he did kind of have, he did tell tall tales and like exaggerated.

So that's the thing is like, nobody really knows what part of it is true. And what part of it isn't obviously like he, that whole investigation, like he was an FBI informant, so that stuff is all true. And he did work for the CIA. Russia and Kosovo and all that stuff. And apparently had a huge role in like, you know, helping with like peace relations overseas in Kosovo and stuff.

So like, it's kind of like all muddied, it's like, nobody really knows what's true and what isn't.

So did he just become super paranoid after like those allegations with Rudy Giuliani and all those people? Like, was he just completely paranoid about all of that?

I don't know. Like I think, but like I said, the article described, like it was after, um, Bernie, like wouldn't help him. That's when he like took a turn and he became very much more vindictive and stuff. So I don't really know if he like believed the stuff that he was saying about like, oh, I know stuff about the 9/11 attacks. I don't know if he actually believed that, but he was just saying that like, that was his excuse for any time anything would go wrong. It's like, oh, well it's just a conspiracy. They're out to get me. I didn't do anything wrong. I'm a victim here and everything. 

Hmmm, interesting.. 

So, yeah, I don't really know, but yes, like I said, the article is fascinating, so definitely go read it. We'll put a link in the show notes because that's crazy.

 But now let's get to what he did in this particular case. So like I said, now, flash forward back to 2010, Larry just showed up on the doorstep of Slonim Woods #9, moving in with his daughter's college roommates. So on the surface, I guess things seem to be fine. Like, I guess if anyone would kind of come over to the apartment or something, they might not think anything's out of the ordinary besides, you know, this 50 year old man living with them.

But other than that, um, there's one roommate, Juliana who says that he took on like a fatherly role within the home, he would clean up for them a lot. He would, you know, make, make dinner for them. He would host like, you know, family, like movie nights and all this kind of stuff. Um, and he would engage in like deep conversations with them about truth and justice and the nature of the universe and like all of this kind of deep philosophical sort of stuff.

So it's clear that the students were kind of enamored by him the same way that his daughter Talia was like, they all kind of seem to fall under his spell as well. So they saw him as this father figure with so much life experience and as someone who could potentially help them with any internal struggles that they were facing, or at least that's how he presented himself as he kind of has like this guru.

Um, so at this time, all of these, like students who were living there, they were all kind of searching for guidance. So, um, and this is guidance that Larry claimed to be able to provide. So for example, Daniel was struggling with his sexuality and he was like seeking help from Larry to sort of sort this out.

Um, and Larry insisted that Daniel was not gay and that he could help Daniel through this. And he had various reasons and insights as to why that was the case. And then there's two other roommates, Claudia and Santos, who were both struggling with depression at this time. And then Isabella, another person suffered a difficult breakup just after Larry arrived. And she was like seeking advice on guidance on navigating this. So clearly they're all very fragile kids. They're all in their early twenties. You know, these are very formative years and obviously a critical time period. I think in the development of someone's social, personal identity in many ways, like, you know, you're kind of like finding yourself in your, like coming into your own or whatever.

Like, so, um, I think Larry knew this and exploited it to his own benefit for his own nefarious means. So although not being a therapist, he began holding group therapy sessions with all members of the household and begin counseling Isabella during this time, right after her breakup and just like crazy things.

So he actually like started to diagnose the kids saying that they had these mental health issues. So he was, he actually said that they had borderline personality disorder and he said that he was a counselor. He could help them. They didn't need to seek professional help. Like he could help them sort through these issues.

Um, for example, like in a therapy session that they had one night and these therapy sessions were like long, they were like hours and hours. He would put somebody like in the hot seat, quote unquote, and like just grill them and like in front of everyone else in the house and like try to go extract this information from them.

Um, so for example, in one of these therapy sessions, so Larry had convinced Daniel that the reasons he played the ukulele was because of trauma that his father inflicted on him as a child. And then he like forced Daniel to like, like step on the ukulele and like smash it to like be cathartic and release all of these like underlying feelings that he had that were like built up due to this trauma that his father had inflicted.

So just like crazy stuff that he's not a professional. Like he doesn't know how to like deal with any of this. He's just, he's just telling these kids all of these things. And, um, so like Larry would force these totally false confessions from these kids, like extracting revelations and secrets out of them.

Uh, so he did that. He, so he could use it against them later. And many of the students actually claimed that most of these revelations were totally fabricated. He, they were just made up in the moment to please Larry because he kinda came... everyone kind of knew that you never wanted to make Larry mad. He was very vindictive and he would like embarrass you and humiliate you, if you ever like, did anything to make him mad.

So like, just to kind of like satisfy him, they would just tell him what he wanted to hear. So like also in the book that I read, Daniel says like he made up this story about like, when he was a child, he saw like a, a bird that was like struggling to live, like in his yard, he picked it up and then crushed it with his bare hands.

But then that was like all made up story. But I guess it was just Larry got that out of him. I don't know. It's super weird. I don't really know like how that happens, but that's what was happening. 

They knew from like, from very early on that Larry was just this guy that they couldn't really trust, but yet they didn't really want to disappoint him. So they just made up these stories just to like appease him, I  

I don't know. I don't think it's that. I don't think it's that they didn't trust him. I think they all trusted him. Like they didn't really know all that stuff about his past. Like, they were only hearing what Talia had sort of said and what he would tell them. So like Talia is telling all these great stories, like, oh, he he's an FBI informant. He worked for the CIA, like he's knows all these high, like professional people. And he was, went to jail. It was all a conspiracy, like there's people out to get him. So to, they don't know that he's like, they're just, they're obviously very impressionable and the, he kind of helped them and give them guidance at a time when maybe they didn't have it from anywhere else. So they just bought into it. 

It's just so crazy to me. Like, I feel like maybe the, I may guess they have like problems and they want to, they need somebody to talk to, but I feel like he kind of took it to like the extreme, but like super quick, like, I don't know. It doesn't really kind of, I don't know. I can't really wrap my head around it. Like the whole thing. Like it's crazy. 

And maybe if you read the article, like, because it's so long, it's like 30 pages, it might like, be more of like a natural progression, but I'm just trying to give you like the basic facts. So it might seem like a little bit like one extreme to the other, like crazy that, but obviously he's very manipulative guy. Like he was able to like, like forge these relationships with all these powerful people, even though he didn't really have any like discernible, like I said, he worked in wall street on the, in the eighties. He didn't have a degree or any training in wall street. He ended up working on wall street like that. How does that happen? Like you have to be a certain type of like manipulative person or like know the right. I don't know. He just seems to be able to get into these situations and just like thrive, even though he has no qualifications for anything 

Kind of like the Wolf of wall street, basically.

 Yeah. Well he's just, yeah. And I think he was just used to kind of getting what he wanted and he knew that he knew he was manipulative. He knew what he wanted. He knew how to get it. And he knew that people would follow him. 

That's a pretty good skill to have to manipulate powerful people like that. 

That's crazy or reminds me of you say, The Wolf of Wall Street, it also reminds me of Catch Me if you Can, like that movie. That's true too. When this guy was able to like, get his self into all these situations, like I forget, I kind of forget, but like, yeah, I dunno. It's crazy that people can have that kind of personality and super smart to be able to get themselves into these kinds of things. 

Yeah. And actually, it's funny that you mentioned catch me if you can, because again, in the article they go into more detail. Like he was a fugitive at one point, like he was on the run, there was a warrant out for his arrest for all this stuff. So he was like a fugitive at one point as well. So like he was that guy, he was that guy Wolf of wall street, like, or, Or Catch Me if you Can, like, he's the epitome of that. Like, but a lot of times that's what I've always struggled with. Like studying this case and stuff. Like, I don't know if I'm like, is he aware of just how manipulative, I mean, he must be obviously, but I'm like, or is he just like being himself and it just so happens that he knows how to do that. You know what I mean? Like, is it a conscious thing? That's what I was always kind of thinking. 

Yeah. It w it seems like when he's with these kids, it's kind of like, he starts off slow. Like he's kind of grooming them. And once he realizes, oh, I can like, make them do and say things, you know, but like what I want them to do. So it was kind of like slow and then maybe he kind of realizes how much power that he can have over these people. And that's how it progresses. I feel like you see this a lot with cults. It's like, everything starts out like really nice and slow, and everybody's like a big happy group. And then slowly things turn, but you're too far in, at that point, which is kind of like what it seems to be happening.

Yeah. And in the, in the book, actually, Daniel describes like the first sit-down meeting that he had with Larry, like shortly after he meets him, like they go to this coffee shop and he says, it's like a six hour or something long conversation where they're just sitting in this coffee shop talking and he's telling Larry, but all these problems and all this stuff that's going on in his life. And it seems like over the course of that six hours was when he really hooked him in. And from there, it was like, you know, like there was no getting out at that point. Um, and like six, it could have, obviously it was like more long-term than that. But like in the book when he's describing that meeting, like, it seems very much like that's kind of when he, the turn or the switch happened for Daniel, at least. And.. 

And it kind of seems like in this situation, and also I'm thinking about other cults, like NXIVM, they kind of like plant these things in your mind, like something's not actually wrong, but like the way you're doing something or the way you're saying things, that's the problem. And so it's like, you kind of start to doubt yourself and it's all because of what this person is planting, when really there isn't a problem, but they make you believe there is, and this is the only person that can help you fix it.

Yeah. And there's like, um, and there was also a lot of talk. They like quotes. Like they say, they can help them achieve clarity. Like, I feel like it's a red flag phrase. If any other, if any, like self-help group says we can help you achieve clarity, cult, cult, cult, like with NXIVM  does that a lot too. Like they're going to help them sort out their issues and be a better version of themselves or something. So that was very much like a part of this as well, because that term came up a lot. 

Did Talia just like, randomly find this group of friends like, or were they like kind of friends with her. Did she make these friends or did they make friends with her at the beginning? Because I'm wondering if she kind of set out to be like, oh, I'm looking at, like, in her mind, I'm looking for these certain people that her father could like, that they could bring into this cult.

Yeah. I don't, I don't know. Um, like obviously, cause this was in their, their sophomore year, so they were going into their second year. So in their first year, that was when they met her. And I don't really know like what Talia's intentions were. Like. I don't know if she purposely scouted these people actually never really thought of that. So that's a good question. But I don't really know like what Talia's true intentions were. So yeah, like it was totally messed up and all of these kids were like I said, very vulnerable and obviously very susceptible to whatever Larry was selling. And yeah, so eventually, um, as things progressed, Larry would end up sleeping in Isabella's room and claim that he was only sleeping on the floor and he was just in there to support and to help her. Cause she was going through that really tough breakup and everything like that. Um, and something wild that happened. So. This is like the first red flag for any of like their parents, I would assume. 

So something wild that happened was that the day before. So he was there for like the full semester. And then the day before Isabella was scheduled to return home for winter break, Larry calls up her family with major allegations. He says that Isabella has been, had been sexually assaulted by a family friend as a child. And for that reason, he did not deem it safe for her to return home because it was a risk that she would commit suicide. So as a result, Isabella ended up staying with Larry for the winter break, but not on campus. She didn't live in campus or on campus housing at that time, they went to an apartment on 93rd street in Manhattan, which was owned by a friend of Larry's. So like, imagine her parents, like they get a call from this random guy. Like they don't know who this person is. And he's saying, oh yeah, like she was molested as a child. She's not coming home because she's going to kill herself if she comes home. So you're not going to allow her to come home. Like what? Like how did they not call the police right then and there? 

Yeah. I was going to say, what did they do about that? They're just like, okay then. All right. 

Yeah. I don't know. I like the article, doesn't go into a ton of detail about like what the parent's next move was. I would assume they like, didn't just say, oh, okay. Like, I'm assuming they like tried to do something, but it doesn't really go into much detail about that. Or at least not in that article something. So, but I'm assuming they were trying things behind the scenes, but nothing that really came of it initially.

Like my first thing would be like, if my daughter said she wasn't coming home, some random man called me and say that she wasn't coming home. I'll be like, first of all, who are you? Second of all, I'm going to be calling the cops because like, I don't know who this person is, who says your daughter's not, and they didn't do anything about it. That just seems weird to me. 

Well, I mean, I guess they probably were behind the scenes, but like no nothing ever happened. Like no charges were ever pressed against him at this time. Or he wasn't removed from campus or something. I don't know. But obviously that would have been very. Bizarre. 

Yeah.And also as  the parents. I would've been like, okay, well maybe she's not coming home, but she's not living with you. Like, I'm going to find her somewhere else to live. Like you're not in the picture. Yeah. Like who are you? 

Yeah. Like, so yeah, like so bizarre. So anyway, as Isabella ends up staying with Larry over the winter break and they moved to Manhattan. So like the school was located in Yonkers, which I don't think it's far from Manhattan. Like I think it's a train ride away. So they, um, lived on 93rd street in Manhattan. The apartment was owned by a friend of Larry's named Lee Chen, who has an interesting role at all of this as well. Um, and at the time, so Talia's boyfriend. So Talia had a boyfriend at the time and he was kind of like in the apartment a lot, um, kind of in and out of there, but he claims that every single aspect of the student's lives was controlled by this man in that apartment.. So what they ate, where they went, what they did, who they talk to, et cetera, et cetera. Like they couldn't do anything without running it by Larry first. Um, and then after the winter break, they all went back to Slonim Woods #9, and they lived in that same apartment again. And things went back to the way they were before they had another semester with these random group counseling sessions, bizarre behavior, et cetera, et cetera.

So in the book he describes Larry helping him at this time in his life and basically encouraging... so he tells, so what's interesting about the book. So like when I read the book, I was like, oh, I need like more information about this case. The book is written from his perspective. So a lot of this other stuff that I've told you, but all of Larry's history and all of this stuff that happened with Isabella, none of that's in the book because it's only what Daniel knows, like it's going in real time from what he knows at the moment.

So in the book, like if you don't know all that other stuff, like you're just getting it from what he's thinking or what his perspective is. Um, which a lot of it, like he's kind of in it. Right. So he's kind of you can hear.. Like he tells you about his hesitation and stuff. But, um, you're not seeing like the bigger picture sort of thing, but he says that, you know, at this time in his life, Larry was helping him and says that he was encouraging and almost forcing Isabella to sleep with Daniel as a way to help Daniel. Um, there's an account, there's an account in the book about Daniel, Isabella, and Larry, like having a sexual experience together one night, it's like super weird.

And Larry kept saying it was a way to help them and they could achieve clarity. And it was like, we free them up to like their true, authentic selves. So like super sketch. So everything Larry did in the apartment was under the guise of helping them. And from the beginning, everyone believed the actions were for their benefit.

So, um, Daniel also says that the book that his father called him with concerns early on, that he was in a cult due to his strange behavior. And he was distancing from like his family members and from his friends. So, um, they were all. He was distancing from everyone, but Daniel kind of brushed off his, his father's concerns as nothing more than just ill-advised parental advice.

Um, and there was actually a moment in time where like Daniel and Claudia even left the country, they went to do a semester abroad and Larry was still controlling them throughout this time. So I think this would have been in like their, um, junior year, they went to England and they did a semester abroad.

And like, during this time that they were away, he would force them to have groups type sessions where Daniel and Claudia would like have sex over Skype. And Larry would watch, it was like so weird. So even outside of the apartment, like they're super in it already. So even outside of the apartment, when he's not having watch over them, he's still like controlling their every move, in a way.

So it's totally messed up kind of going back to something. I think it was Steph said earlier, like about how everyone. It was like hesitant or like might've been hesitant. So one interesting thing that Daniel says is he initially did question all of it, but his observation was that everyone else seemed to be fine with it.

So he thought that his reluctance was like something wrong with him. So he decided to go along with it. Like, I think in a lot of times too, like in the NXIVM cult, you know, all the documentaries that came out with that one, it was like, they were taught very early on that like being hesitant was like a reflection of your own issues.

Like they were kind of trained to like, if they had a hesitancy that like, it wasn't a bad thing, they had to like get over it and just go with it, which is obviously a way to like manipulate you and like condition you in order to like, agree to things that you would normally do. Um, so he says that like every time that he would kind of come up with one of these hesitancies, it would be like, oh, well this must be something that I'm dealing with that I need to deal with.

Like, I need to deal with this, get over it. And, um, and so when you think about it, like individually, they may have all have had these questions, but nobody was really vocalizing it out loud. Larry was kind of in the apartment at all times. So there was never like a moment where any of them could just like sit down and talk without him there, or like have conversations away from him really.

And if they were away from him, like they never really never really got brought up. So like, they all could have individually been thinking this, but then like when they were like, well, no one else is thinking this. So like, it must be about me. So, but then it's like, if you just think like, all it takes is like, knowing the movies when you're like, all it takes is one conversation and this whole mess would be resolved.

It's kind of like that where it's like, if they just could sit down and all have a conversation and they could all express, maybe their own hesitancies could have been solved much earlier because obviously Daniel was having those thoughts as well. Um, but he just thought that everyone else was super into it.

So he's like, well, it's must be my, my issue. And he's like, you think he's like, well, obviously Larry's not terrible because then everyone else would have an issue with it. So if everyone else is fine and like, it must be fine, 

Didn't they,did they now go to school? Like, did they go to classes or anything? I feel like they could like meet somewhere like at lunchtime. 

Yeah, well, they went to class and stuff, but like, I don't know if they were all weren't in the same classes. I don't know. Like it just, obviously they weren't having conversations about this or Daniel was like afraid to express it to anyone else.

Cause like I said, he's seeing everyone else into it. So he thinks like, oh, well maybe if I do it mentioned to someone, then like they're going to tell him and then it's going to get worse and then I'm going to be punished. So yeah, like that, that's the way that he had that. That's the way that he had them all manipulated.

Right. Like to not do that and not do anything against him and not to question him at least out loud. So Claudia did try and raise alarm bells early on. So she, right before Daniel and Claudia left for that semester abroad, she actually sent an email to the Sarah Lawrence college Dean. But what was going on and the email was titled, "The Truth".

After spending more time with Larry, she backtracked that and claimed that her initial statements in that email were caused by Larry's ex-wife that was tricking her into making these allegations. So again, it all came back to his ex wife. Oh, it's a conspiracy. Like she forced me to write that email and forced me to say that.

And then she like retracted it all. So I don't really know if like you still think the Dean would be like super sketched out, but obviously wasn't., 

Nothing came of  Like,, he didn't like check it out for his..? 

I don't know. Again, it doesn't go into that detail at that time, so I don't know what was done.

But nothing big enough that made anything change. So like, it seems like even when they were raising these concerns, it was all for not because Larry knew how to get to them and make them either retract those statements, regret anything, or like forget their initial hesitancy. So one major event from the book. Okay. This is like super sketched out and I'm not going to go into like a ton of detail because it's like disturbing and gross, but I'm going to go, just go a little bit, like, just to give you like the level of like disgustingness that would happen.

So one major event from the book that's also described in this article takes place when Daniel was accused by Larry of sabotaging Talia's application to get into law school.  So she didn't get into law school or she didn't submit the application. And apparently it was all Daniel's fault and he refused to take the blame for it.

And after this, Larry made a garrote out of like, he took aluminum foil and he like rolled them up into these balls and he would place these aluminum balls into this rolled up piece of saran wrap, but he made like this circular device. He ordered Daniel to place that around his testicles. And then Larry proceeded to twist it, like obviously causing excruciating pain.

But Daniel describes in the book that he may have, he actually had become immune to pain in all of the years leading up to this because there had been other times where he had been like, he would be physically abused by Larry. And like, he kind of just became numb to the pain. He actually says that obviously it would be excruciating, but in this moment he actually faked how much it hurts.

So that's just that Larry, he could please Larry and like satisfy him. Like once he reached a certain level of like, knowing that it hurt bad enough, then Larry would stop. Like he had to reach that level. Like it's disgusting. And that's only like one of the things, like I said, I'm not going to go into all the other details of all the other stuff.

So this is like shows you the lengths that Larry was going to go to, to maintain absolute control over his victims. Um, after this specific incident, Daniel... well, after this incident, Larry kind of comes to them, him and says, kicks Daniel out of the apartment, basically. So Daniel leaves the apartment and stops taking phone calls or having any communication with any member of the cult.

And he describes this and the process of leaving in 2013 in his book that I read. So that was kind of his final straw. So how could it not be? Honestly, but, um, so that's when Daniel kind of peaced out, 

So he kicked them out, he just didn't leave?

 Well, he, well, it's shortly after that incident, he kind of, he kicks all the students out at one point, Larry is like, comes to them and he says like, you can't live with us anymore.

You're not appreciative. You're not accepting my help, blah, blah, blah. He kind of like gets frustrated and kicks them all out. Um, and then Daniel left and then like he went back to living on campus. Cause this was happening at actually, they had moved off by this time they were living in New York city, like in one of his apartments that he owed in New York city.

So this wasn't on campus anymore, this part. But Daniel and we just moved out. He moved, ended up going back to campus, living on his own on campus and just kind of ignored. Then Larry would call and try to like reach him. You would like stop answering his calls and his emails. And then eventually you just got out.

Um, but then the other people that were also kicked out, they were drawn back in eventually. Um, so the list of victims wasn't just restricted to that small group of students who were living there when Larry first moved in, because at some point Santos, which was one of the other students, he was the one, he was suffering with depression, at the time. He introduced Larry to his two older sisters, Felicia and Yalitza. They were both in college at the time. Yalitza was an undergrad at Columbia university and Felicia was a Harvard and Columbia graduate with a medical degree. Felicia was doing a medical residency in LA at the time that she was introduced to Larry and it all went downhill for them very quickly from there.

Wasn't too long after, after Felicia met Larry, she quit her residency, she moved across the country, moved in with Larry and eventually started a romantic relationship with him. So, this is like not supposed to show you, these are like highly educated people, like a Harvard graduate with a medical degree, doing a residency.

Like I think a lot of times people like, look at victims of cults and say like, well, they're dumb. They just, they were like gullible and naive and like not educated and didn't know. So, but these are Harvard educated people and they're still falling victim, 

Man, like, it's one thing to have this guy living in your dorm room. So yeah. You're going to listen to him. He's right there. It's another thing to like drop your life and fly across the country for this guy. Like that's totally different and so crazy that he had that kind of power over somebody, someone that was like smart and didn't need him, you know? 

Yeah. Like she was totally like better off, obviously without him, she had, she had her shit together.

Like she was like going through a residency and she quits that she moves in with him, starts a romantic relationship. Um, and then other various acts of abuse, like Larry would put Santos into chokeholds until he would pass out on numerous occasions. The list goes on and on and on and on and on. So it's why I'm not gonna go into all of it, but yes, it goes on and on.

I'm always so curious, like what these people say to the people that they get to do these kinds of things. Like, I just want to hear their speech. I want to hear like what they do to recruit people just to like, get into the mind of the people that fall for it, because I just can't imagine what somebody would say to me and I'd be like, yeah, okay. I'm coming across country for that. Like 

I know exactly it's crazy. And like I said to a lot of times people's shame the victims and they say, well, they're just like dumb, like who would fall for that? But I think it says more about, I remember we did that, we appeared on that other podcast, we talked about cults. I said like, it's more of a testiment to how good at manipulating the person is versus a testiment to how stupid the victim is, you know what I mean?

 Definitely 

Like, if they're, they're able to get these like super educated people who are smart to give up their whole entire life. And like you said, I want to hear the way they talk the way he talks. Like, I want to know like, like it's just crazy to me. 

I know it's easy for us on the outside to be like, oh my God, like, how did you, why did you do that? How did you not see that? But I guess if it's happening to you in real life, you have no like outside perspective at all. It would be a lot easier, I guess, to think that you're a part of something better than it is.

Yeah. It's super crazy. And obviously, like she wouldn't have moved across country to live with him and she didn't believe what he was saying. So like, obviously she was bought into it. So whatever he said was worked, um, see, like I said, so Lee Chen, he was the one who owned the, um, apartment that they were living in, in Manhattan.

And he was the one who kind of said all of these, like various acts of abuse, both the choke hold and all that stuff. So he eventually came forward about all of that as well. He eventually ended up kicking Larry  and some of the women out of his apartment eventually. Cause he was just had had enough as well.

Um, another piece to this case is the fact that Larry started to extort money from these students. He would have them create itemized lists of various pieces of property that they had destroyed in the apartment. So he would say like, oh, you scratched my pan. You need to pay me, you need to replace it. Or you broke my oven. You need to do that. 

You scratched my pan! 

Like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, scratch. There's literally in the thing. It's a scratch it's and he like, he like beats Daniel up in the book because he scratched his pan apparently and broke his oven allegedly and he had to like pay for it. So, um..

 You broke my fridge! 

Yeah, over the years, these items amounted to hundreds of thousands of dollars that he requested that they pay back. So in fact, Santos reportedly sent an email to Larry at one point, titled "Prices of your things I damaged/ruined with preliminary total". And the total was $47,000 and he was required to pay back to Larry. And of course, Santos didn't have that kind of money. So he relied on his parents to pay for it. And he basically went to his parents and threatened to commit suicide, if his parents didn't pay this amount. So it just gets crazier and crazier and crazier. 

Was this just like a legal thing that he had, that Larry was got like, legally, you had to pay this money back to me? 

No, it was just like, he made them come up with a list. And then I guess it was in his eyes, it was legal. Like he made them write the email . He.. Santos wrote an email to Larry with a list all the stuff that he allegedly broke with a total breaking down to how much it was. And it was ended up being $47,000. 

Oh my god! 

Santos was like, he went to his parents and was like, I'm going to kill myself if you don't pay this.

So like you have to pay it. So his parents were obviously super alarmed and his parents showed up at the apartment and demanded to be like shown this alleged damage that was caused. And they were just trying to get

Show me that scratched pan!

 Yeah. And like, obviously they're like super sketched out, they're like what's going on? So they go and Larry refuses to let them into the home. Won't let them go any further and like it's wild. So when all this is said and done, Santos' parents ended up paying over $200,000 to Larry over three years. And in total, between all of his victims, he reportedly made over $1 million from all of these people for this. So he's like making money off this as well. Like he's making bank.

 I don't understand why they didn't go to the police?

 I don't know. It's crazy. I mean...

 They show up at the door, it wouldn't let him in. And then my next thing would be like, okay, I'm going to go to the police. Like what? Going to pay you all this. Three years for three years and not doing anything about it. 

Yeah. It's crazy. So like it's so fucked up. Um, yeah, so he's, he's, he's making money off these students as well. And he's just, and like, I dunno, like at this point maybe his parents I'm sure Santos' parents at this point. It's like, no, this got to stop. Like getting them the fuck out of that house. I don't know. Maybe that's kind of what got the ball rolling with some of the parents. I don't know. But again, the article doesn't go into a ton of detail about that. Um, and then also after this Yalitza which was Santos' sister, she tried to commit suicide by commit, by swallowing an entire bottle of Tylenol in 2013, then Claudia tried to commit suicide in 2014.

Both suicide attempts are unsuccessful, but when these suicide attempts have, okay, it gives me weird when these happen, Larry would go to the hospital and he wouldn't allow his, their parents to see them unless he was in the room with them. He had total control over everything. So they couldn't even see in their own child after they tried to commit suicide.

And because they were all over 18, there was nothing legally that could be done at that point, because in the eyes of the law, they were all consenting adults. So I guess if his parents, their parents did go to the police and they're like, well, they're an 18 year old, like they're over 18. Like if they want to be with this man, like you can't stop them basically. So that's where I'd say kind of like that gray area. It's like, okay, but at what point is it like, you know, yeah, they're over 18, but like also there's, he's a criminal. So, that was a kind of like, I think the wall that they were bumping into with that kind of stuff.

He probably wanted to be in the room with them so he could control everything that was going on with his parents to make sure that they didn't say anything to their parents without. Yeah. Like he was just fucked up.

 It's crazy. And in a direct quote from this, uh, New York article. So quote, "according to family and friends only Santos tried to take his own life before meeting Larry. Since then Isabella, Yalitza  and Claudia have all attempted suicide. Larry later estimated that their cumulative number of attempts at more than 12".

So in the years that followed all of this, Daniel, um, Isabella and Talia, they all graduated in 2013. Claudia graduated a semester late and Santos ended up dropping out, never graduating. Claudia reportedly owed so much money to Larry that she had no choice, but to go into prostitution to pay the money back.

So on the streets, her alias was a combination of Larry's daughter's names. Larry created websites, which advertise Claudia services for up to $8,000 a night. This was all so that she could pay him back for all of this alleged damage that she caused. So, um, like I said, the list of his offenses and horrible treatment goes on and on and on and on.

Um, I've only scratched the surface.. Much like they scratched the surface of that pan! No,I'm just kidding. Um, I only scratched the surface, so I definitely recommend you read the full article for all the details. But if you're wondering Sarah Lawrence college did have a statement after like that article came out and they basically said that there was never any evidence that Larry Ray ever lived on campus. They couldn't really do anything. 

It's not like he signed a lease and..

 That's because they didn't have a proper like no visitor rule, or no squatting rules.

 Yeah. 

Well, they probably did, but not like someone's going around and checking right.

 But you'd think it's a private college. So you would have those types of security in place.

Well, when I lived on campus, nobody came around. Is anybody living here that's not supposed to? Like, that's.. You would just assume that it's not happening. 

That's not a private... 

No, but they didn't. Obviously they didn't.. Like clearly this went on for years, so it didn't happen. Yeah. And Claudia's parents say that they did meet with the Dean of the school, Allan Green, when they first heard that Larry was living with the students.

And he basically said, there's nothing they can do because we cannot prevent a father from visiting his daughter. So that was kind of his response. Um, after this full length article was published, authorities finally started to pay attention to the horrific situation that was going on. By this time, it's 2019 and this has been going on for nine years. 

So Larry was eventually indicted on federal charges in February 2020 and was arrested in one of his homes. So he actually owned a bunch of homes, I think he was in his North Carolina home at the time of the arrest. He was arrested in one of his homes where he was living with two women, believed to be Isabella and Felicia. He is being charged with sex trafficking, extortion and forced labour conspiracy. And that was in February, 2020. So, um, so what like a year and a half now? Almost two years ago. Um, and since then in a new development, Isabella Pollock, she was once considered one of Larry's victims. So she's actually been charged as a co-conspirator for her role in all of this.

So allegedly she was actually way more involved as the years went on than everyone was originally led to believe. The New York Times reports that she may have been involved in Claudia being forced into prostitution. So Isabella is the only one other than Larry who has been charged with any of this. 

Was she getting money too? Like did they probably had proof that she was .. Like, you know, earning money from.. 

Yeah. Like she was kind of in, on it with, with like getting money from these, from these students, for these items that they broke it. Like she was getting some of that money as well. Like she was kind of in on it and she was the one who was getting a lot of the money from Claudia being in prostitution.

So she was getting..

 Talia was never arrested? 

Yeah. See, I don't, I don't know, like all it says, Talia graduated in 2013, but then that's like kind of the end of what it says about Talia. So I don't know, like what if she got out? She has no contact. Cause she seems like it'd be the, obviously she was the one who has been in it since she was a child. Like she was under his spell. So you'd think she would be the one. And it doesn't name in the article does says he says that he was living with two women at the time he was arrested. I believe it's kind of speculated that it's Isabella and Felicia are those two, because they're two of his most loyal supporters at the time.

I feel like by that time mostly everyone else had gotten out, um, or weren't obviously weren't as they weren't living with him. Um, But now behind bars awaiting trial, for which he could spend the rest of his life in prison, if he's found guilty, Larry still has control over some of his victims. So while he's in jail, he's allegedly using his own father to communicate with some of his victims to try and scare them out of testifying, as witnesses in the trial, some reports say that this could be considered witness tampering.

And at the time of Larry's arraignment on the original charges, Isabella and Felicia were in attendance at the court to support him. So obviously they were clearly sticking by his side, but that was right after he was arrested. That was in 2020. And that was obviously before Isabella herself was charged in early 2021.

So she was actually, the article came out March 1st, 2021, that Isabella was now charged. So they're the only two that have ever been charged with anything. Um, but it's so he's still awaiting trial currently. And yeah. What do you guys think?

 It's kind of like that NXIVM cult that happened to like, it's kind of like, it was kind of on the same, same lines, but not as, I mean more gruesome than the NXIVM crime... NXIVM cult, but I feel like it's, they're kind of similar because he has control over like what they do and where they go and how they, like, what they, how they feel about themselves. Just like the NXIVM cult where he had control over everything they did just, I find I find cults so fascinating to me.

 I know it's crazy. And I think too, a lot of times, like, obviously he probably was telling like all these students throughout that he knew all these people in the NYPD and like he was high up in the CIA.

So like, obviously they're gonna be scared shitless to go against, you know, and that maybe that's why the parents also didn't. And also too, like they might think like, oh, he has people, he knows people up in the NYPD like, why am I going to go to the police they know him. He's friends with them. Can't go to the FBI, they're friends with him. Like that's what it might be, what they think, because he's told them all these stories about like how he has all these connections. So it's like, how do you go to the authorities when  he's friends with the authorities, you know, or at least claims to be. 

That's true. But I mean, like I said before, it's like, not that old, like this is pretty recent. So I don't know. I feel like it's easier to find out that kind of information. Maybe. I guess if you're working with the FBI, that's not really out there on the internet, like secret agents and stuff like that, but I don't know, I'm not blaming anyone, but it just, you know, back in like the seventies, it's easy, easier for someone to say shit, you not be able to back it up with anything, but now it's like, you should be able to find that kind of information. Maybe, I don't know. 

Yeah. So the fact, like, I wouldn't just buy that if someone's like, oh, you're, it's like, oh, your daughter's in a cult with this man who claims to be in the FBI. So, okay. Well maybe check into that or like maybe follow up. I don't know. It just seems weird. And maybe the parents, I'm sure they were involved a little bit more and like trying to get them out, but, um, obviously it took them a long time to, um, to obviously make any progress or it wasn't until that report, that article came out in 2019 that outlined all of this stuff that anything really happened. And it's crazy though, to think that like, even when you look up this case, like you're not gonna find a ton of information on it. Like my friend, a few YouTube videos, or obviously that major article in a couple of like New York Times articles. But like, I feel like a case like this, like how is it not more like all over the news?

Yeah, that's true. And I guess like the parents probably just didn't realize like the severity of. As it was happening because I'm sure their kids weren't telling them what was happening. So probably took them just a long time to clue in. And then by that time it was like, so out of their hands, all they could really do was pay.  I don't know. 

Yeah. And it's crazy that it's hard to say because like, how would the parents not know? It's like hard to like blame the parents. Cause obviously, like they're not choosing to have their children like go through this, but like obviously the only person to blame here is Larry himself.

But also too, it's like a little bit weird. It was like, where's that line drawn? Because it's like, well, Isabella, I read a followup article from the New York Times, or I think it was People, People Magazine actually that said that Isabella's family is saying that she, you know, she was a victim. So like she can't be charged because she was only doing those things because she was brainwashed by him.

So like really she's also a victim and shouldn't be charged. So it is kind of like that gray, gray area of like, what is the line? Like, I don't know. The same thing with the NXIVM case too. Like when like Alison Mack was also charged with helping that Keith Raniere, like with all of that stuff, it's like, but she was also a victim of him.

So it's like, how do you determine what actions were done as a victim and what actions were done by being involved? I don't know. 

Yeah. And I think like, those lines are blurred because you can be a victim, but you're thinking what you're doing is helping and is good. So it's like you, even though, you know, what's happening, you think your mind so warped that you think it's a good thing, like with the branding, right? Like they, they went out to be like, yeah, like that just shows that you're a part of this special. And they feel like they actually believe that it was a good thing for them to be branding, you know, these women, even though, obviously it's not, but that's just where it's like, they're so brainwashed that they they're doing these things. I don't know. It's like a blurred line. 

And that's why I don't think I, yeah, that's true. It is really hard to determine what that line is. And I don't know how they're going to do that. Like, especially in Isabella's trial, like how they're going to determine like where that line, where she crossed over the line of being a victim to being a co-conspirator.

But also I forgot to mention both, both, both Larry and Isabella, both, uh, pleaded not guilty to the charges. So that's currently where it stands and it's still ongoing. So I'm sure there'll be updates that come up, but yeah. I definitely encourage you to read that article and get Daniel's book. We'll put a link to both of those, because if you are fascinated by this case, as much as I am and how crazy it is, like, if you want more information, those are your two best sources, 

Cults are so interesting. Just like I can't like I can't wrap my head around just like the psychology of the people that are involved. 

I know it's so crazy. I think it kind of goes to show that anyone can fall victim to it. It's like, I feel like a lot of people think it's. You know, uneducated or like the people who are easy victims, it's like, no, I mean, maybe there are some people that are more susceptible to it, but like the case of those, you know, those two women, like who were like Harvard graduates were like, these are smart people. So it's ... it's not as simple as just saying, it's like, oh, someone who's like uneducated or like, you know, has nowhere else to go. They have nothing else going for them. So they're just going to go into this. Like, no, it's a lot more complex than that. 

Yeah. It really is crazy. I look forward to seeing if they actually get convicted and what their, um, their sentences are going to be.

Yeah. And I wonder if anyone else will be charged, like any of the other students who like may have done stuff for something, like if more stuff will come out. I don't know, but yeah. And I will say all of this is alleged alleged, cause it hasn't been proven in court yet. So I will just throw that out there. All of this stuff is alleged. 

Yeah, my book is written from Daniel's point of view. So he might not have known some of the other stuff that other people were doing allegedly. So, I mean, yeah. Other stuff could come out. 

Yeah. That's why it's like, cause obviously, like I said, at the beginning, like when I read like the synopsis of the book, that's what drew me into the case.

But actually like you learn more about what actually happened in the case, from the article versus the book, because like I said, the book is all from Daniel's perspective. So it's like his thoughts. And so all of that other stuff about like Isabella and like all the suicide attempts from other people, like only stuff that he knows is in the book or he experienced. So he didn't know a lot of that stuff. So it doesn't go into as much detail about like obviously the backstory of Larry or any of that. But it's still an interesting read 

It's crazy how like, like there's not.., Um,like I read, I kind of read part of that article that you were talking about, like a while back, but like, I haven't heard any, like I haven't heard any news on it at all!

I know it's weird .

For a cult as fucked up as this one, I feel like that was something that the media would be 

all over.

 But a part of me wonders too. I'm like, when you think about, yeah, the media would be all over, you know, think of like, you know, like we mentioned before, the Gabby Petito case, like that case is crazy, but it's all over the news.

Like this one has so many layers and it's so like, this has like true crime documentary written all over it, but I'm thinking like, maybe it's possible, like Larry has connections in the FBI and the NYPD like, maybe they're not, they're keeping it hush. I don't know. Like, who knows. Maybe they don't want it to come out and maybe they're trying, who knows what's going to come.

Right. That's just a theory. Obviously I have nothing to back that up. But like, if he does have those powerful politicians who are like, he does know them, it's like, who knows what they're doing behind the scenes to like, make sure this story doesn't make it big. I don't know. Again, alleged.

 Well, we'll update you as we know more about what happens. Um, so stay tuned for that. If there's any we'll of course let you know, but as always, you can follow us on Instagram at @crimefamilypodcast, on Twitter @crimefamilypod1, we're also on Facebook at Crime Family Podcast, um, and we do have a Gmail account. So you can email us all of your case suggestions.

We actually did get quite a few case suggestions, um, just recently. So we're looking into those, um, feedback, tips or anything you want to say, let us know, um, in our email. So that's crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com. So yeah, until next time we'll see you later. Peace out.

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