Crime Family

S02E18: THE MUSKOKA MURDERS

January 12, 2022 AJ, Katie & Stephanie Porter Season 2 Episode 18
Crime Family
S02E18: THE MUSKOKA MURDERS
Show Notes Transcript

The Muskoka region of Ontario is usually a beautiful summer destination for cottage owners in Canada, but this week we tell you the story of its dark underside: a side of the community that centers around one family whom many suspect to be responsible for a string of murders from the 1990's.

After 77-year-old Joan Lawrence went missing in the fall of 1998, the Laan family was at the center of rumors and speculation about what could have happened to her. The police investigation that follows unveils what was going on behind closed doors of the Laan family's business dealings- specifically those related to a series of retirement homes they owned in the Muskoka region. In this story, the alleged mistreatment of the residents and their missing pension checks are only the beginning. Could the Laan family also be responsible for this series of suspected murders? Or is there another explanation about what really happened to the seniors?

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EPISODE RESOURCES:

'The Fifth Estate' Episode

CBC News: Joan Lawrence's family seeks justice:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/cat-lady-joan-lawrence-family-muskoka-mystery-missing-seniors-1.5386819

The Walrus- Investigative Report:
https://thewalrus.ca/muskoka-mystery-police-suspected-murder-in-the-case-of-missing-senior/

Updates on the Case (2019):
https://www.toronto.com/news-story/9518900-opp-give-update-into-1998-99-disappearance-of-4-seniors-in-muskoka/

'Murder in Cottage Country' (The Fifth Estate):
https://youtu.be/b2BAieMXRxc

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AJ: [00:00:00] Coming up on this episode of Crime Family:

 ...But this story shows the darker side of this quaint cottage country- specifically after four elderly people vanished and are suspected to have been murdered all at the hands of one family. When the police arrived on the Laan property. And they discovered the shed that Joan was living in and they noticed that it was totally cleared out by this time.

Katie: Where'd all the cats go?

AJ: In a grisly detail, more than half a dozen of Joan's cats were found on the property. And all of them had been shot dead. The Laan family would allegedly go into Toronto frequently in order to find seniors and invite them to their nice affordable retirement home up North. 

Katie: Yeah. It's almost like they kidnap these people and they're like forcing them to stay there. Like that's almost exactly what it is.

It's almost like taking a kid somewhere and they can't get out. They don't have any choice, but to stay. So it's really.. it's kinda creepy. 

AJ: Hi, [00:01:00] everyone. Welcome to another episode of Crime Family. I'm your co-host AJ and I'm here with my two sisters, Stephanie and Katie. And this week, I'm going to be telling you the story of a series of suspected murders that took place decades ago in the [00:02:00] Muskoka region of Ontario, which is a beautiful destination for cottage owners here in Canada.

But this story shows the darker side of this quaint cottage country specifically after four elderly people vanished and are suspected to have been murdered all at the hands of one family. This podcast is called Crime Family, and this week we may have a real crime family on our hands. The information in this podcast has been gathered from a series of sources and has not been proven in the court of law and no charges have been laid relating to the suspected homicides.

The information, while all from legitimate journalistic sources, is all alleged at this point in time. So I just wanted to throw that out there before we get started.

 The story into the Muskoka murders all begins with an elderly woman named Joan Lawrence. It was her sudden disappearance in 1998, that began a chain of events that would cast light onto the Laans, a family at the center of the case. Joan Lawrence was a 77 year old woman who had quite the reputation in the small town of Huntsville, [00:03:00] Ontario, which is one town in the Muskoka region, which kind of makes up a series of small little towns. So known locally as the cat lady, Joan was always seen by Huntsville residents, walking miles into town every single day for basic supplies, mostly cat food.

She was a known staple for the locals who would always see her out and about, but suddenly she stopped taking these long walks and stopped being spotted by the people of Huntsville. Joan seemed to vanish without. Joan got her local nickname as the cat lady, because she was known to take in abandoned cats in the community, which eventually amounted to about 30 cats that she lived with at the time that she disappeared. More shocking than the fact that she lived with 30 cats at one time, was that she lived with them in a tiny, dilapidated shed on property belonging, to the Laan's, a local family who owned and operated a series of seniors homes in the area.

Joan's small eight by 10 shed, housed her and her 30 cats and had no [00:04:00] insulation, heat or running water. What's even worse is that she paid the Laan family up to $700 per month to live there, which seems criminal in and of itself. Because this was likely the only place that Joan could live with all of her cats, she remained in these squalor conditions for a significant period of time. So for anybody that's completely unacceptable arrangement, but especially for a 77 year old woman who is extremely vulnerable. At one point, she was relocated from the shed to a van that was on the far side of this huge Laan property, which spanned about 68 acres.

The van that Joan eventually lived in was among a row of old abandoned vehicles that the family had accumulated over the years. And they just kind of stored in like the back corner of this huge property. So Joan lived in one of these vans that was there still in horrible, terrible conditions. 

Katie: Also, I just want to say that that's like unacceptable for a person to live in. And I guess she kind of had a choice cause she didn't have to have that many cats, [00:05:00] but also it's not acceptable for like animals to live in that situation either like 30 cats that aren't wild animals shouldn't be living there. So it's, I find it weird that the whole town knew about it, but nobody was like stepping in for like the cat's sake. You know what I mean? 

AJ: I don't think the whole town knew that she lived in the shed. Like she was kind of just known as the cat lady. Like they knew she had a lot of cats, but I don't think it was like public knowledge the extent of the conditions. Like maybe they thought that she lived somewhere on the property and like, maybe like a guest house, but I don't think they knew that it was like this little eight by 10 shed that had no heat or like running water.

Katie: Oh, okay. That makes more sense than, 

AJ: And like, people kind of knew, like she was kind of like a staple in the town. Like I said, like she, everyone knew she had these like a lot of cats and she loved animals and like, she was just kind of this like kind of quirky sort of figure that everyone sort of knew.

Um, but yeah, it's really sad to know that she lived at literally this small and eight by 10 shed and like some, uh, like [00:06:00] a documentary focused on the case shows the shed and it's totally horrendous. It's like kind of like the shed that we had, our fricking shed that we have in our backyard. So our shed is probably bigger than that, but, you know, and it was just totally unacceptable for somebody to be living in there with 30 cats all year round.

Katie: Yeah. And our shed ,our shed wasn't dilapidated either just, it was just small. It's what you mean.

AJ: Yeah. Yeah, sure. It was like small, like the shed that we have, but imagine that being dilapidated, someone living in there with 30 cats all year roundinand like Muskoka, Ontario, which obviously gets intense winters.

So it's pretty crazy. So little is known about Joan's early life, but what is known came about by deep investigations that the police did as well as information that was gleaned from distant relatives of Joan's including Sherry Churchill, which is Joan's first cousin once removed. Churchill was found by researcher Laura Beacom, who was looking at Joan's family tree on Ancestry.ca and came upon Sherry's profile. [00:07:00] Sherry only knew things about Joan from stories that she heard from her grandmother and her mother. So by putting pieces together from these stories, as well as investigations that have been done, her backstory became somewhat clearer.

So Dorothy Joan Lawrence was born in 1921 in Ottawa, Ontario, and eventually worked as a copywriter for the Toronto Star newspaper in the early 1940s. So she was an aspiring poet and at one point it was even dismissed from a job for allegedly writing a novel while she was supposed to be working. And, you know, she was a early 20 something year old woman in the 1940s. So the fact that she was a copywriter for the Toronto Star was actually like a big accomplishment at the time. Eventually she moved to Toronto. So I think she worked for the Toronto Star but she didn't actually live in Toronto at the time, I guess, because they say that eventually she did move to Toronto to care for her elderly parents a little bit later on.

And, um, Joan was last heard from, by her family in [00:08:00] a Christmas card from 1976. There was no return address left on the card. And Sherry Churchill explains that there was a possible dispute over inherited property that led to bad blood between Joan and her relatives, which could explain why she kind of cut off all ties and all communication after 1976. Like after, you know, the mid seventies, none of her family really knew what had happened to Joan or where she ended up. But eventually she did end up in Huntsville, which is in the Muskoka region. And it's estimated that she went there in about the early eighties. And this is evidenced by the fact that her name is on a property deed from 1984.

So when she first moved there or shortly after she was living in a small shack at that time which burned down a few years later, according to an article by CBC news. The cause of the fire was a stack of newspapers, which she piled too closely to her woodstove. Following this, she bounced around from the salvation army to a bunch of different boarding homes.

Um, [00:09:00] and she kept her cats in like this, I guess, in a small, like sheltered area in the local woods, which she would often return to for a visit. So she always did keep tabs on her 30 cats or many cats that she had accumulated over the years. So by the 1990s, Joan ended up as a resident of Cedar Pines Christian retirement home. Now this was a home that was run by the Laan family. Joan did complain at one time that the rent was much too high for her so she eventually left and that's where she ended up living in that shed that was owned by the Laan brothers, David, Walter, and Paul. So even though she left like the retirement home that they were running, she still lived on their property in this shed.

So in September of 1998, the police were alerted to the squalor conditions that Joan was living in on the Laan property, according to an investigative report done by The Walrus. And it's the name of like, that's the name of the publication, [00:10:00] a social worker alerted authorities after being made aware of the conditions from her client, Joseph Paquin.

He also lived on the property in another tiny cabin that he shared with another senior. Now, Joseph explains that he lived in this cabin on the Laan property for about $400 a month with similar conditions to that of Joan Lawrence. He also didn't have access to telephone or a reliable way to get into town for basic needs.

He says he survived on meals of Kraft dinner multiple times a day, but not much else. Adult protective services eventually got involved and set plans in motion to have Joan removed from the property, but she would only agree to move somewhere else if it would accommodate all of her cats as well as her.

So Joan was last seen by Huntsville residents in October of 1998. So this would have been about a month after, you know, all of that stuff started to like when the authorities became aware of the conditions that she was living in. So about a month after that is when all of the regulars in Huntsville that would normally see [00:11:00] her, that's when they just stopped seeing her out and about. Around this time, Joan was complaining about her tax refund check that had gone missing, and she had reportedly planned to confront her landlords about the missing check. And shortly after these intentions became known, she was never seen again. According to The Fifth Estate, the Laan's sometimes would pick up Joan's mail when they were in town, you know, kind of doing her a favor.

Um, well they said that they were, you know, probably said like, "oh, we can do you a favour, we can pick up the, um, the mail for you". Cause they lived like outside of the main town. So she would always have to walk like a few miles into the town every single day to get the mail, go to the bank and stuff like that.

So this is probably why she suspected that they may have intercepted her checks and taken it for themselves. An investigation into the missing money was successful. The police discovered that the check had been cashed earlier that spring, but not by Joan, but by someone else whose signature did not match hers.[00:12:00] 

And Joan had eventually went on to hire a law firm in order to help her in her case, against the landlords. Um, she had helped them to kind of build a case against them and find evidence that would suggest that they were stealing her, her money. And she cited mistreatment and financial abuse as her primary causes of action.

Additionally, she advised the social worker that if anything ever happened to her to call the police immediately. So obviously she knew that the Laans were capable, what they were capable of and was scared that they might try to do something, but she probably knew that she had to pursue this case because she was being taken advantage of, but to the highest degree her money was being stolen right out from under her among other things.

And obviously she lived in these horrible decrepit conditions, uh, for a long period of time, which is horrible like I said, for anyone, let alone a 77 year old senior. So, uh, took a little bit of time for, you know, the law firm to get all the paperwork in order and for them to kind of build up this case against the Laan's. By the time [00:13:00] the paperwork for her case was ready for the police, uh, she never arrived at the law office to pick it up and she was never seen again.

 Okay. So the Laan brothers, David, Walter, and Paul, the three of them owned the property that Joan had been living in. So they were basically Joan's landlords for this entire time. And their uncle, Ron Allen would see Joan Lawrence often. He would often drive her into town to pick up her mail or take her to the bank or just to help her out, do some things for her.

And it was David, Walter, and Paul's sister Katherine who owned the Cedar Pines retirement home at which Joan had lived at for a period of time as well. So Joan had connections to many members of this family, and they were all very much familiar with her and that frequent contact with her. Also, none of them reported her missing after she was last seen in October or November of 1998.

Katie: So were her checks when they were being stolen were they like someone forging her name and signature, or [00:14:00] was it somebody else was putting their, like their name on it? 

AJ: Um, I'm not sure. It just said that the signature did not match Joan's so whether they were like, just forging her signature or if it was a completely different name, they never said.

Katie: Okay. 

AJ: But it wasn't like they were able to match it with what Joan's signature would be. So obviously somebody who had intercepted them and was cashing these checks without her knowledge. 

Stephanie: Did anybody else come forward with like, not getting their checks from the same landlords or was it just her?

AJ: I'll get into that ...further investigation into the case, turned up information that Joan had instructed the post office to only give her mail to her directly and not to any member of the Laan family.

And also the investigation showed that she did have a joint bank account with David Laan and David had a bank card of his own in which to access some funds from the account. So he had a bank card attached to that account with his name on it. [00:15:00] However, Joan herself did not have a bank card of her own to access the funds and money in this account was being accessed from this bank card around the time and shortly after Joan was last seen alive. So reports suggest that when Joan would go to the bank to cash her monthly checks.,, So I guess she, she was beginning like monthly, like pension checks or retirement checks.

Um, she would immediately, like when she went to the bank to cash, these checks, she would immediately give a large amount of the money to this man that was standing outside of the bank, waiting for her. One of Jones' friends, Linda Charbonneau, remember seeing this man at least once and, you know, witnessed Joan going to the bank machine, taking the money out. Then she would walk it right over to this man who had his hand out and she would just hand him a stack of the money. And then this person would like get the money and then he would turn around and basically leave Joan standing there. So obviously it's never been confirmed like who this person was, but she was taking out money for the purpose of giving it to this [00:16:00] man. 

So if you're not highly suspicious of David Laan's role in all of this quite yet, there's even more so after Joan hadn't been seen by like a lot of the people in the community. Um, and no one quite knew where she was and after like, uh, when the police kind of started to poke around and to see what could be going on here, um, when David was questioned by the police about Joan's whereabouts shortly after the missing persons investigation began, David's stories were never consistent.

He would tell conflicting stories about her possible whereabouts. You know, he said that she was on a trip to Hawaii to visit some friends. You know, she went to Vancouver to see some friends, or she was in New York, or he also said that she had gone into hiding. She was afraid of the police. Another story was that she was living with random people, a woman named Hazel, or quote," a Scottish man named George".

 Over the years, David has given a total of 16 different stories about where Joan was and referred to her in the past tense on at least one occasion, [00:17:00] according to the report by The Walrus. So when you think of like the conditions that Joan was living in, she wasn't getting a lot of money from these government checks so she wasn't very well off. Obviously she's living in this like decrepit shed and like on this like wooded remote area of the Laan family's property. So to think that she's going to be, you know, the type that's going to be able to go and take lavish trips to Hawaii and Vancouver, New York, like it's not very likely that's going to happen. She can like barely have enough money for her cat food that she buys and stuff. So these stories aren't really believable right off the... right off the bat. 

It was December of 1998 when the police arrived on the Laan property, uh, just a couple of, or about a month or so after Joan was last seen and they discovered the shed that Joan was living in and they noticed that it was totally cleared out by this time, which they thought was kind of odd. So they started to do an investigation on the property. They took a backhoe that they used to kind of [00:18:00] check the grounds of the property. Uh, they did a helicopter search and the police, you know, searched the wooded areas on foot.

And they also checked the water near the Laan property, which turned up no sign of the missing woman. 

Katie: Where'd all the cats go?

AJ: In a grisly detail, more than half a dozen of Joan's cats were found on the property and all of them had been shot dead, but they only ...they found half a dozen, so they didn't find 30, but they did find like up to a half a dozen dead cats on the property who had been shot.

Stephanie: That's very disturbing. 

AJ: And yeah, so obviously the police are super sketched out. I'm like, why is her shed completely cleared out if she's on vacation? So what they said," oh, she went on vacation with her friends- we're going to clear out her entire shed. So it doesn't like, it's a little odd," we're going to shoot six of her cats because she's on a trip to Hawaii".

It's just clearly not, not matching up. So obviously the police are very suspicious. That's why they're doing like full ground searches with the backhoe. They're trying to like dig up some earth to see if maybe they can find [00:19:00] something. Like I said, they, the police walked to the wooded areas and found nothing, the water, they found nothing.

So all of these kinds of searches initially came up empty handed. What initiated this police search and like what made the police go to the property in December of 1998 was it was a neighbor who had actually reported Joan missing. And he says that around the time that she was last seen, he recalls hearing gunshots and seeing a backhoe being operated on the property, which are all suspicious details, which cast more doubt on the Laan family. So this neighbor, you know, at this point in time, apparently she's living in that van, like in the back corner of the property and he hears gunshots coming from that area. And then there's like a backhoe that's like digging up earth shortly after that. Um, so we thought that was kind of odd. Obviously that's a separate, that's a separate backhoe from the one that the police were using later, just in case you're confused.

So yeah, these are all suspicious details, which casts more doubt on the Laan family. So [00:20:00] this man was named Alan Marshall and he was actually a resident of the retirement home that Joan was at for one period of time. And he was actually secretly working with the police during a portion of the early investigation. And he was a person, he was the person who reported Joan missing initially. And he ended up becoming one of the lead investigator's like primary contacts, um, which gave them a lot of information about what was going on inside the retirement homes and all of that kind of stuff. So, yeah, officer Erin Burke, she was like the main investigator in the early stages of the investigation and she, um, and Alan Marshall were in contact a lot and a lot of the information she gets early on comes from. him. He also says that on Saturday, November 28th, 1998, David Laan had called him up on the phone and told him to intentionally mislead the police about Joan's whereabouts if he were asked and also instructed him to tell the police that Joan was in Bracebridge with [00:21:00] David the day before. But in reality, it was nearly three weeks since Marshall had seen Joan Lawrence alive.

So detective Erin Burke believes it is 100% a homicide investigation rather than just a missing persons case. And she dates the possible murder of Joan Lawrence between October 28th and November 27th, 1998. So the latest date of that range November 27th, that would be just one day before Alan Marshall allegedly got that phone call from David Laan.

So obviously very suspicious. I mean, all of this stuff is alleged. It's never been proven in any court of law. Very sketchy. Like what kind of person who is totally innocent of this person going missing would tell 16 different stories to the police about where she is? Like, why wouldn't you just have one story?

Why have her, her shed completely cleared out, have six of her cats shot and then call up this person who reported her missing and basically request that they lie to the police and say that she was here [00:22:00] when she wasn't? So like, obviously none of these things are really looking good. So all of this was going on, like in late 1998 going into the next year.

So it was Joan's disappearance and her missing persons case that actually led to discoveries that three other seniors had gone missing around the same timeframe between 1998 and 1999. All three of these seniors had government checks which continued to be cashed after they went missing but no evidence suggests that it was any of the seniors themselves who had cashed these checks. These three seniors were named John Semple, John Crofts and Ralph Grant. So like Joan, these three other seniors had ties to the retirement home that was owned and operated by Katherine Laan. So, she was the one who kind of owned the retirement home, at least one of them. Um, and so rooms in this retirement home were advertised as quote," attractive and affordable" endquote. The home itself, uh, touted on [00:23:00] site nurses and in-house dieticians who could cater to the residents every need, both medical and otherwise.

However, witnesses and community members who eventually came forward said that the lodge was far from perfect. They described mattresses on the floor where the residents would sleep. There was a foul odor in the air throughout the entire home. And the so-called quote, "nutritious menu" that was being advertised was actually only Kraft dinner being served to the seniors three times a day.

So in The Fifth Estate episode that covers a lot of this case, there's a contractor by the name of Jeff Van der Clout. And he was hired by Katherine Laan to bring the home up to fire code, but he declined the job and described the house as being quote "in shambles". He also says that this corroborates, that the seniors were laying on the mattresses on the floor, moaning and groaning, there was barely any staff around, um, there was up to 11 seniors that was in the small four-bedroom home all at one time. [00:24:00] And it seemed that the residents were left mostly on their own to care for themselves, which was a far cry from this like perfect retirement home that was being advertised. Uh, and he says in the interview that if any of his relatives were in there, he would have taken them home with him immediately because it was basically horrible conditions.

Katie: I'm just curious how they would even get away with that for as long as they did, because obviously if somebody, if I was gonna bring, you know, somebody that I knew into a retirement home, you'd go check it out first. So probably a lot of people weren't in it because somebody did check it out. But I feel like if someone goes and looks at it and sees that it's like that, why would they not report it? You know what I mean? And like even like the staff that work there, why would they continue to work in a shithole and not report it? 

AJ: I know these are all good questions and I will answer those because there's a very specific reason. So you can know exactly where I'm going. So it's like, but yeah, like when you hear, obviously it's like, how did this go undetected for so long? [00:25:00] Like these, you know, seniors, how could they be living in these horrible, horrible conditions and no one really knows, or at least no one's reporting it? And like, I get the vibe that there was sort of rumors that it's a small town, right. The Huntsville, and like the Muskoka area, it's like small community. So like, you know, small town rumors, like there's probably rumors going around about the Laan family who are kind of notorious at the time, So people were kind of sketched out already about them, but yeah, like these are reasonable questions, like why it's going on for this long and no one's really doing anything about it?

So shockingly, so at the time that these homes were being operated by the Laans so it would have been like in the early to mid, late 1990s, Ontario at that time had very few governmental oversights of such homes. So there were no inspections that were done to ensure that conditions were suitable for a retirement home. There was no like agency that existed to renew or revoke licenses. And there was no official government body that existed at the time that people could turn to who would officially investigate reports or [00:26:00] issues. So such regulations like this were only fully passed in recent years. So the Ontario Retirement Home Act was only passed in 2010 and then it was finalized in 2014. So, which was like would have been, you know, a decade or more after all of this had happened. So there's no kind of agency to report these things to like, which seems ridiculous that in like the late nineties, there wouldn't be something like that. But I guess if people had concerns, like they didn't know, I guess the police would be the only sort of people you could go to. There was no, like, you know, I'm going to report you to like, what, not like the labor board, but like, you know, like there's no like retirement home boards. Like there's nothing like that at the time. So people probably didn't know who they had to go to. And like, maybe they're hesitant to go to the police, it seemed a little extreme or something. So that's also, that's one reason potentially. On top of these horrendous conditions, there were also reports of like things like missing jewelry, bank cards that were being destroyed and just like overall neglect by the Laan family, to these seniors that they were supposed to be caring for.[00:27:00] 

And in addition, it's alleged that the Laans had just hired friends and family to work at the retirement homes that they operated. And it's unclear what credentials, if any, that they had in order to properly care for the residents. So to go to your question of like, why the staff would like allow this, it's like, well, if they're all friends and family of the Laans they're probably all, you know, they're in deep with them as well. So, and they weren't like legitimate people. I don't even know if they had any credentials. 

Stephanie: I was just going to say that before you, when Katie was talking about that, I was going to ask like, were they all family? Cause it sounds like something that like, they were all in this together and they all worked together and they all knew each other, which is what it kind of sounded like at the beginning. So that's why... 

AJ: Yeah Well like Katherine Laan... Oh, sorry. I was going to say well Katherine Laan, like, she was the one who was officially like the owner of the retirement home and then the three brothers were the ones that like owned the property that Joan lived on. Like altogether, they were probably all in on it, allegedly.

They could have all been in cahoots. The family was kind of, they were all close at the time. So just [00:28:00] cause she was the owner of it, but it was probably like all of their family and friends that were working at this at this place. But some of the people who came forward said that like when they went in there, there was like barely any staff around. So it was almost like there wasn't any staff to speak of. There might've been very limited staff at one time, but they weren't actually like full time staff who were actually doing what you would do in a retirement home. You're basically just leaving these seniors there to fend for themselves. 

Katie: But was there like.. When did like elder abuse laws come in?

Cause you think that would be something, you know, they could be charged with if somebody reported them,? But maybe that didn't come until later, I don't know. 

AJ: Well, I feel like, I mean like the nineties it's like 20 years ago now, but I feel like that's not that long ago. So I mean, I didn't look into like the elder abuse laws, but I feel like there has to be, there would be abuse, like elder abuse laws were a thing. Yeah, like a little bit, a thing more than 20 years ago, 

Katie: It's unbelievable that 2010 only regulations came in for like senior home [00:29:00] standards and things like, that's kind of crazy and scary. Like how many people suffered for so long because of that. 

AJ: Yeah. Like it is kind of crazy to think. And like, this was all according to like the articles from CBC and The Walrus, um, so like The Walrus is like a publication that teamed up with The Fifth Estate, so the two of them together were the ones who did like the bulk of this investigation. But yeah, they were the ones, their reports were the ones that said, like, it was only 2010 when like the, the Ontario Retirement Home Act passed. And then in 2014 it was like amended and like officially, fully fleshed out. 2014! That's like seven years ago. It's crazy. And that's just in Ontario. I don't know what it was like in other parts of the country. And obviously it's not like a federal thing. It's like province by province, but obviously Ontario was fucked up obviously at the time to think that like only seven years ago they had the full like act that came out, which is crazy, which I guess would be the only act that would like actually be something that you could charge someone with if they [00:30:00] went against that.

I don't know. But elder abuse was obviously a thing. So I don't know. So also one of the other questions Katie, that you asked was like, all these people, like how could their, like, families like not go and check out this place and like allow them to stay in this place or whatever. So a lot of people that were interviewed for these articles and for The Fifth Estate, the say that the Laan family would allegedly go into Toronto frequently in order to find seniors who were mostly transients, like they were living in homeless shelters and they were just like homeless or had very unstable housing and had no one to really turn to. And they would like find these people and invite them to their nice affordable retirement home up North, so the people that they would, you know, "recruit", I say that in air quotes-- had few connections with many other people, this made them perfect targets. Like they would seemingly would have fewer people connecting them to the city.

Uh, so it would be easier for them to just get up and follow the Laan family [00:31:00] up North, like they had no one there they had to really report to who would be like suspicious. And there would be nobody who would really notice if they went missing and no one to report them. So it's like almost like they targeted these people for that specific reason.

And it's almost like sad. It's like, they're going to go all the way out of their way, drive a couple hours to like scout-- I don't even know how they would scout. What would they do? Like walk on the street, like outside of the shelters and just find these random seniors, like it's bizarre. And I don't know the details of like exactly what they would do or like how they, I don't know, but they would basically manipulate them and have them come up North to their nice retirement village or...

Katie: That makes it like so much worse. It's not like they had these people and they were like trying to do the right thing and kind of like slipped through the cracks and couldn't get themselves out. It was like they were doing that purposely so that they wouldn't get caught. It's not like it was an accident, you know? Like they had not like it was a good place and then they just couldn't afford it anymore. It was like deliberately let's find people that we can exploit. [00:32:00] It's that's really sad. 

AJ: Yeah. Like, so it's obviously it makes it much more of like a planned, like premeditated, premeditated sort of thing. Like they're going to go and like, seek out these types of people just, it seems really like cruel and evil and obviously they knew that these people were very vulnerable and will be easy targets, which apparently they were. 

Stephanie: Like, we also, like, we see this all the time. Like a lot of seniors get scammed for like many different things, but like, there's always like senior scams going on. Like people take their money or like their personal, like all of their life savings or whatever. It's like, they pick on the people that are older, obviously, because they might not know or they might think it's okay, but in reality it's not. And they just, the more, I guess, they're more vulnerable. So I feel like I want to call it a, an elderly scam. Like I feel like a lot of places pick on elderly because of their age and their comprehension of [00:33:00] certain things.

Katie: Yeah, I think that's exactly why there's like elder laws or elder abuse laws in place because people do feel like they can take advantage of them and nobody will care because you know, some old guy down the street, you know what I mean? So, yeah. 

AJ: Yeah. Like if you have like an 80 something year old person, who's like complaining of abuse or whatever, it's like, people might write it off as like, oh, well he's just like older. Oh, he's like, he's not in his right mind. Or like, I don't know. They just kind of don't take it as seriously or they kind of de-legitimize it. So, I mean, it is sad. Like they are easier targets for that reason. And especially people like seniors who have no connections, they don't have family advocating for them family who are going to look into certain things. Or like you say, family who is going to like check out the seniors home before they just put their, so it's not like their families are sending them to the senior home. It's like they have no family to really check up on them. So, and like these people come to them on the street and say like, "we have this nice retirement home. It's really affordable. And it's really, really nice" and probably showed them like pictures or whatever. So [00:34:00] like, they're like, "of course! This beats like this home, this homeless shelter I'm living in, you know, in a dorm room with like 10 other people". So they think like, you know, too good to be true. And it's so sad to say that the, yeah. 

Katie: And like once they get there, they have no way to get out of that situation because they're so far from home, they don't have any money to be able to travel back. It's like, they're stuck there in a worse situation. It really is a shitty thing to do. 

AJ: Yeah. And it's like, they're totally at their mercy at that point. They've already driven them hours outside of the city. And it's in this wooded, like isolated place. These people don't have cars. They don't have a way to get out. So they literally are taken there with no way out, which is really sad. And like, basically we're just hoping that it was all on the up and up.

And then when they found it, it wasn't, it's like, well, well, there's nothing they can do. 

Katie: Yeah. It's almost like the kidnap these people and they're like forcing them to stay there. Like that's almost exactly what it is. It's almost like you're taking a kid somewhere and they can't get out. They don't have any choice, but to stay. So it's really, it's kind of creepy. 

AJ: Yeah. It's, it's [00:35:00] crazy. And like that whole piece of them going into the city and finding these people, like very purposefully, like that adds a whole new layer to it, because like you said, it's not like just where that the, these people that they were maybe in over their heads and like took in these elders and then didn't quite have the means to like care for them the way they should have. It's like, no, this is like a very intentional sort of thing or at least it seems that way 

Katie: Yeah. It's like they planned out this whole like sketchy scam, like this exactly what it is. So it's very sad. 

AJ: Yeah. And then like, like I said earlier, like Joan was complaining that the rent, I don't know, I never saw, like, I don't think I saw a report that said how much the rent was per month, but it was touted as being like this affordable, really nice place to live or whatever. And like Joan had complained that it was really expensive or more pricey than she was willing to live or pay. So that must've been, when she threatened to leave, they probably said, oh, well then you can live in the shed on our property. It's cheaper, but it's, you know, whatever, I don't know. Like, [00:36:00] and obviously, like I said, she had nowhere else to go, like, she's, doesn't have family there or like, and she had 30 cats, like at this point she had those 30 cats and she wanted to live with them. And there's probably very few places that would actually accept 30 cats. So... 

Katie: Yeah. I don't think anywhere would accept willingly. Like I have 30 cats can I live in your apartments and be like, well, that's a no. 

AJ: Yeah.

Katie: And you, obviously you think like maybe she had, like, we always go back to this oh, mental health issues. But I think someone that lives in those kinds of conditions and chooses that, like she didn't have to live with 30 cats, but she, that was kind of like her comfort. There was obviously something going on there for her as well. 

AJ: Yeah. And like I said, like they don't know a ton about her early life. Like they just know kind of like the basics that she may have had a falling out with a lot of her family members because of this property dispute or whatever. So, like I said after, like The Walrus reports that after 1976, like that was the last Christmas card that anyone ever got from her. And that was after that, she was basically just vanished from the family. And then I don't know, [00:37:00] like what brought her to, and then I said, she went to Toronto and cared for her elderly parents, and then she moved to Huntsville in like the mid eighties, I don't know what brought her there, but, um, yeah, like, I don't know a ton about her to say definitively, like if she had mental health issues or...

Katie: It kind of, it's not the same, but it kind of reminds me of like hoarders and how they, sometimes they find all these dead animals in their house that are like buried under all their stuff, or they're living with a ton of animals. And it's like, there is a mental issue going on with them because they're hoarding and it's, as people will be like, well, "it's so easy for you not to be a hoarder". Right? But there's something like mentally happening. So yeah. I feel like it's kind of like similar..

AJ: Well, I'm pretty sure, like it was recently like the DSM now classifies hoarding as like a mental health. Like there's a diagnosis of hoarding. Yeah. 

Katie: So they tell family members it's not their fault that their, their house is a complete, giant mess and it's disgusting. It's like they [00:38:00] there's something mentally going on. 

AJ: And I think like, obviously I'm not a psychologist or anything, but I think like a lot of it is tied to sort of like either like abandonment issues or sort of things like that, where it's like, they hold onto these like material items because like they just, I don't know. Or they have a lot of animals because they've been like, uh, you know, it's just, it's really sad. It's kind of fascinating to look into that too. 

Katie: Yeah. I think it is like abandonment and that they don't want to lose things. They have to hold on to everything, to the extreme. 

AJ: Yeah. It's like attachment issues to the extreme. It's like they're attached to material items. 

Stephanie: Like I get the attachment issues and I get like you want to hang on to these things cause you have like abandonment issues, but like to live in those type of conditions with your cats, I feel like that's also qualified as animal abuse because your cats aren't getting the proper, like proper place to live or proper hygiene or whatever, because they're living in these like ... 

AJ: I mean, it definitely was, but [00:39:00] like maybe in her mind, cause like these were all like abandoned cats from the community that she would take in. So in her mind she's like, "well, I'm offering them a home. I'm feeding them". Whereas otherwise they would just be out there without any of that stuff. So, yeah. 

Katie: But I think it is like animal abuse. Like people would be charged with that. If it was like, if that enough, for someone that wasn't mentally like a mental health issue, if you were hoarding 30 cats in your house, a small little house, I think it would be, animal abuse.

Stephanie: Because it just reminds me of like a family friend that we used to have that had like 20 cats in her house. 

AJ: Oh yeah. 

Stephanie: She had a beautiful house and it was very like eloquent and very like nice house. And she kind of ruined it because of her cats and like most of her, like when she passed away, I think most of her cats also died as well.

Like she couldn't keep up feeding them. So I feel like, yeah, I don't know if she had a mental issue, but I feel like I kind of just reminds me of her because she had all these [00:40:00] cats and it was just like a horrible thing because her house was so nice. She had a huge grand piano at the top of her stairs, but yet her house smelled like cat pee and all you could see it was just cats everywhere. It was kind of..

AJ: That is sad, but at least, at least, I mean, at least she had a house. Joan had a small eight by 10 shed with no insulation or heat or running water. And had 30 cats in this small little space. So it's like worse for sure. But, um, yeah, like, so like bringing back, I don't know, like I said, I don't know enough about Joan's like backstory to like say what was going on, like mentally with her.

Like, she might've had some things happening, but like either way, even if she did or not, like she's being taken advantage of by these people who are supposed to be offering her like housing and like all this stuff and they're, you know, they probably had a joint bank account with her, so they probably had it under the guise of like, "oh, well, we'll just like with the joint bank account, like help you take care of your money, make sure it's like going to the right [00:41:00] places", whatever, whatever. Like, obviously it was all a sham because they're using the money that's in the account even after she goes missing. 

Stephanie: But it wasn't a joint bank account because she didn't have a bank card. 

AJ: It was a joint bank account.. Technically like it was still her account. She just didn't have a card that was issued to her under her name.? 

Katie: Yeah, her name was probably on it, but yeah, she just didn't have access to it or...

AJ: Her name wasn't on the card.

Katie: Well, they probably each had their own card with their own name for one bank account.. But I'm saying like, she could have had a card. She just didn't.. Each card had their own name on it, because it was the same account, but she just had no way to access it.

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. 

Stephanie: That's just sketchy off the get go. Like I'm going to get the joint bank account, but yet she didn't have a card obviously she can't access her money if she doesn't have her bank card. 

AJ: Yeah. And that's the thing is, I don't know, too, because then it said like she would go into the, to the bank and take out all this money and give it to him. Like when it should, does she using his bank? Yeah. Or maybe she would go into the bank. Maybe it wasn't like the ATM, [00:42:00] I don't know. It's 1998 are ATM's a thing?. 

Stephanie: She probably went to the teller.

Katie: Yeah. But even at the teller you have to have a bank card. Right? You got to go to the teller and they're like "gimme your card, I have to swipe it".

AJ: Maybe you didn't back then. I don't know, 1998? Like, I don't know what it was like in 1998. That seems like I still seems like back in 98, you'd have to have a bank card. You can't just go into and say, give me money from this account. I mean, I guess if you have photo ID to prove you're that person. 

Katie: Yeah, that's true.

Stephanie: But she didn't have photo ID cause if she didn't live in where she didn't have an address, she couldn't get photo ID. 

AJ: She probably did have photo ID. I don't know. Well she did have an address. Like the property had an address. I'm sure.

Stephanie: I guess a person who would have to come with her and be like...

AJ: Or it could have been, like, she could have put an address of the retirement home she was living in that had an address. So I'm sure she had photo ID and stuff like that. But so I guess like she could have just went and showed them the ID and said, I'm her- give me this money from this account? I don't know. But for whatever reason, like he has no business having a joint account with this woman. Um, and then using it after she's last seen alive, like the money is still being used.

[00:43:00] Apparently there was six different times after the time she was last seen that this bank account is used. It was used like the one charge was from the Toronto Eaton Centre -he's using this bank account. Like, so obviously Joan's not going to the Toronto Eaton center. Like she lives in Huntsville, Ontario. Like how is she getting there?? Yeah, it's just sad. So police suspect that 71 year old John Crofts went missing in February or March of 1998. Crofts reportedly suffered from bipolar disorder and he was at Glen Fern Manor, which was another retirement home that was operated by the Laans in 1997. Then there was John Semple, who is 91, and he was last seen alive and went missing between January and March 1998. Much like Joan, after these men were last seen none of the Laans reported them missing and still seem to be accessing their bank accounts and cashing their government checks.

Then Ralph Grant was added to the missing persons list in November, 2000 after discovering in [00:44:00] their investigations into the Laans that he went missing around the time that the Fern Glen Manor closed in the late 1990s and was never relocated to another home or heard from again. So the home that he was staying at just closed and then like he went with it? Like, he was never put into another place or seen anywhere? Family members Katherine, David, Walter and Paul- so the four of them were eventually charged in 2001 and 2002 with six counts of fraud, over $5,000 and theft involving pension checks. The three missing men were among the victims that were involved in these charges.

Walter and Paul pled guilty to the charges and received probation, restitution orders, and conditional sentences. Katherine was convicted and received a nine month sentence and David's charges were dropped for unknown reasons, which is according to court records and reports by The Walrus. So none of them actually... 

Katie: Restitution is [00:45:00] interesting because who is he giving it to if all these people are missing? Do they ever like figure out like ways to give it to these people? 

AJ: But, well, they were charged with six counts, so it might've been six different people and not all of them are missing. Like three of them are considered missing. Joan wasn't involved in those accusations or those charges I don't think. None of those were as a result of her.

Katie: I guess.. 

AJ: Like if there were six counts. ..

Katie: Yeah. I guess if you were ordered to pay restitution to somebody you'd think that they would find a way, you know what I mean? Like they would connect a way to give those people back their money, you know what I mean? And if they can't do that, you think that would be suspicious. 

AJ: Yeah, that's true. And maybe like, they weren't ordered to pay restitution to those three people. Maybe some of them, like, it didn't go into detail of like who they had to pay restitution to. It's like there were six counts, so it was probably six people. And the three men were three of those people, but like, they could have had to pay restitution for like two of [00:46:00] them or like more of them or something. 

Katie: Right. Okay. 

AJ: Um, So, but apparently according to The Fifth Estate, none of them actually spent any time in jail, it said that Katherine got a nine month sentence, conditional sentence, but never actually spent any time behind bars. So I don't know how that works. I don't know the legal system that well, but I guess maybe it was like a probation sentence or something ..So she didn't actually go to jail for it, or that's what they say in The Fifth Estate. So, but for some reason David's charges were dropped. So I don't know what happened behind closed doors there, but he was ever actually never charged. Nothing went on his record for those specific charges. Um, so these charges were actually not the Laan's first run-ins with the law. In fact, the family had a sordid past of similar charges and allegations in the years proceeding their fraudulent retirement home operation. So Katherine herself was previously. a school treasurer volunteer at a Christian school in the Muskoka region.

One of her children was a student at the school at the time. Um, not long after that, she [00:47:00] was found to be stealing money from the school. Prior to this, uh, by the age of 25, Katherine had been to jail for charges relating to drugs, theft and extortion. And by the time she became the treasurer of the Christian school, her troubled past seemed to be just that- in the past. She was a regular church goer and a mother, so she seemed to be reformed and changed for the better on the surface, at least. But it was actually that contractor, Jeff Van Der Clouts that I mentioned earlier, he was the one who said he went into the, he, she, she hired him to get the building up to fire code and he declined the job or whatever like that.

It was actually him. He was actually a board member at the school at the time that Katherine was treasurer and he was suspicious of Katherine's financial dealings at the school. He says as treasurer, like she was in charge of where the money went for the school. And like, she allocates it to go to all the different places it's supposed to go.

But Jeff was suspicious about how she was allocating this money and where it was all going to, he explained in an interview that Katherine would never produce like any [00:48:00] financial reports that she should have been doing as treasurer. And she would never attend any board meetings. So he was very suspicious from very early on.. Eventually, Katherine was charged and convicted of stealing nearly $30,000 from the school. 

Katie: So the worst kind of people. They're stealing from the elderly and schools, like you can't get much worse. 

AJ: Yeah. It's like, they're like opportunists, con artists who just kind of look at any opportunity they can to just make a buck.

Sounds like, uh, someone else we know, but I won't get into that. Um, And so Katherine's brothers, Walter and David also had criminal records of their own dating back to their teen years. They had charges that included fraud, theft and breaking and entering. And one of them was charged with like impersonating a law enforcement officer or something.

This is all according to The Fifth Estate as well. So they're basically, you know, they're familiar with, with fraud and theft and the law. Yeah. [00:49:00] Basically the Laan crime family, allegedly. Um, well it's not allegedly, they were charged with some of those things, like all the extortion and she was stealing all this money from the school. Like that's all been proven. She was charged with that. So that's not alleged. All this other stuff with the seniors is alleged at this time.

 In the year directly following the disappearances of the four seniors, Katherine sold the last of their retirement homes, and eventually she moved to the U S, Walter moved with his family to Southern Ontario, Paul went to Alberta and then the two major suspects in this disappearance and suspected homicide of Joan Lawrence, were David Laan and Ron Allen. So Ron Allen was their uncle. These two specifically, they were actually listed as the two first degree murder suspects in police documents from 1999.

So they were the two specific ones that, that main detective named as the people she thought were the main suspects. Um, Ron Allen seemingly disappeared among the speculation and couldn't be [00:50:00] tracked down at first. Some suspect that he moved to Orillia, Ontario, but The Fifth Estate documentary was able to find David and Ron Allen and approached them on the streets as a part of their episode that focused on the family.

But they both refused to comment at all about any aspect of this missing persons investigation. So they kind of did that thing where you know, that they find them when they go up to them. In the parking lot, "tell us about, we're doing a report on, um, the missing woman, Joan, Joan Lawrence. But can you tell us about that? People think that you're, you're guilty", you know, like harassing them, following them to their cars, which like is, you know, I just find it hilarious.

Stephanie: Something we should do in our career as podcasters!

AJ: Yeah, like find the people and chase them down with a, with a camera crew and a microphone. "What do you have to say for yourself?"

Katie: Oh my God, that's something I'd never be able to do.

AJ: I know me neither! Well,, it's like they show the video of them, like cornering them in the parking lot, following them to their car. "People think that you killed Joan Lawrence. What do you have to say for yourself?" And obviously they're not saying anything. They're just like, pulling the windows up, driving off [00:51:00] and Ron Allen, when they confront him, he's just like walking on the sidewalk and they come up to him. It's like," they think you are a suspect. They think you killed her!" And they're saying this like loud and there's other people around. And he's just like, not saying anything, um, it's quite humorous, like the way they do it in the thing. But.. 

Katie: Is like anybody allowed to do that to people or just, you have to be like a professional journalist or could like, I go up and be like, "oh, you you're a suspect. Like, what do you think?" Or could you be charged for that?

AJ: I don't know. Like, I think it's like, you're not going to their home to do it. Like if you just see them in public, like ...

Katie: If you're yelling at them in public though in front of other people..

AJ: It wasn't actually yelling. And he was just like talking like, you know, he was just saying like, I dunno, I guess, I guess you are allowed. I feel like they wouldn't do it if they weren't allowed. But I mean, what can, what can they say? 

Katie: Like, that was The Fifth Estate though, like, they're professional people that can do that kind of thing. We're like, we'd just be random people going up with somebody. So. 

AJ: Yeah. Like, it probably wouldn't go over so well if we did that, but [00:52:00] like... I mean, it didn't go over well, I'm sure that they did that, but..

Katie: Well, I guess that's what paparazzi does, could you just be considered a paparazzi person? I don't know. 

AJ: Yeah, that's true. But, but in this case it's like legitimate things they're saying.. It's not like just, you know, I feel like it's like, it's like, can you really get, I mean, what are they going to do? Spend all their time suing this Fifth Estate host? Like, I don't think it's going to be worth any of their times to do that.

So The Walrus also reports that since her last series of arrests in 2000 Katherine Laan changed the spelling of her last name several times and would drastically alter her appearance. So she seemingly was trying to like avoid being spotted or found in public. Um, so obviously she knew that the police were investigating these disappearances and they may have been getting close to finding out the truth at some point.

So this could be why she tried to avoid being detected easily. So she's like changing the spelling of her last name. She's like, getting different hair colors, different styles, stuff like that. But the latest updates from The Fifth Estate do report that Katherine Laan died in July, [00:53:00] 2019, but no other information about cause of death or anything like that. But she did die in 2019. Um, to this day, the cases are unsolved and there's no there's been no bodies that have been found. There's been no bank account activity that occurred since, you know, since those initial ones that, that were part of the investigation that were done by the family. But after that, nothing, no one's ever heard from them since.

So for like all accounts, people consider them that they are dead. I mean, one of them was also 91 at the time and it's been 23 years. So yeah. So for 23 years the seniors have been missing and the Laan family has been at the center of all the speculation. Police have said that as, as late as 2019, that they have been getting multiple tips in recent years and may have been getting close, closing in on like some form of concrete evidence, but would not comment on like the nature of these tips or like what was coming of it. The Fifth Estate also mentions that a woman named Susan Pollackis and her husband, Scott, who live along the lake close to the Laan [00:54:00] property, they did find a pair of false teeth in their garden, which were eventually collected by the police.

But they got no other update as to whether this lead was legitimate or tied to the case or anything like that. But it's still kind of, you know, speculation in this small little community. This family is pretty notorious. And as of now, it's still unsolved. So..

Katie: Well, it seems like too much of a coincidence for them not to be involved, but I mean, maybe you never know, like, I guess not saying they did it allegedly, but I mean, it just seems too much of a coincidence.

AJ: Yeah. Like what are the chances that like, after Joan talks about, you know, she's filing this case against them for stealing her money, then all of a sudden she goes missing, her shed's completely cleared out in December, they give 16 different stories about where she is and this neighbor also happens to hear gunshots and sees a backhoe, like digging up earth, like around that time, like, [00:55:00] what are the chances all of those are completely innocent and not connected at all? And also her cats were found, six of them were found dead- shot dead.

Katie: Like, yeah, that doesn't make sense. Like, there'd be no way that that would happen with her consent. Right. So, I mean, yeah.

AJ: Yeah. But then at the same time, like shortly after, you know, they did do, like, they dug up some of the ground and they checked the wooded areas, the water, nothing ever was found- no body. So it's like, where did they put her body? You know, if they did kill her on that night when he heard the gunshots. But I guess if they, he said he heard a backhoe. But also the, um, one of the police officers at the interview says that it was a 68 acre property, which is like a huge piece of property.

So I don't, I doubt they dug up the whole entire thing. So, but I mean, they did dig up a part portion of it with the backhoe, but I don't know if they would have done dug up it all, but they never found her body or any of the bodies of the other missing men. So I don't know. [00:56:00] But I mean, it all seems pretty, like, I don't know. It's like, it's all circumstantial evidence, I guess if you can call it that. 

Katie: Is it still like ongoing investigation or is it considered like a cold case? 

AJ: Uh, well, it's still considered like an open investigation, but as of 2019, when like that Fifth Estate episode came out or was updated, like that's the last update and it was considered open and they were getting tips and stuff, but that's kind of the latest update I've never heard of... no piece of news later than 2019. 

Katie: Maybe they're still gathering evidence or are at a standstill, who knows!

AJ: And it seems to be like, kind of one of those cases of like, they're pretty sure they know who did it, but like there's no concrete evidence besides just the circumstantial like scenario, but nothing that you can actually like fully charge someone with.

So, which would be so frustrating. It's like, when you feel like, you know, but you just have nothing, like, I guess all you have, it's not really hearsay, but that guy said that David called me on the phone and told me to lie to the police [00:57:00] about where she was like, you can't really corroborate that. You're just taking his word for it. So like nothing concrete. 

Katie: Yeah. It would be frustrating. Like us just listening and knowing this a little bit. It seems so obvious what happened or like what they did, but not being able to prove it is. Yeah, frustrating. 

AJ: Yeah, it's just crazy to think. Like, I don't know. It's like happened to Muskoka, which is like, not that far from where I live ...a couple hours. So just crazy when it happens semi-close to... yeah. I mean, at the very least they were found guilty and charged with like, you know, running these horrible retirement homes and like theft and fraud and all that kind of stuff. So they aren't good people just for that. 

Katie: Yeah. At least that's shut down. Nobody else is like suffering because of them, but still. 

AJ: And it's like, what's the, I just can't think of the motive. Like, what's the point, like get a real job! Like why do you have to be a con artist?

Katie: I know it's not like they're making that much money I feel from this, it's just like a lot of work for really little gain. And it's like, so [00:58:00] immoral. Like, God.. Just, fuck! Like, do something else.

AJ: I know. It's like what it said, something like she embezzled like $30,000 from this school. It's like $30,000 is a significant amount, but it's not like a huge amount that like, you know, you can go and retire and like go to some fancy Villa in like the Caribbean for the rest of your life, you know, like...

Katie: Yeah exactly.

AJ: It's like, why don't just get a real job. You'd make more than that in a year. Just working legitimately. 

Stephanie: I just, I just find it incredibly sad that she took advantage of these already vulnerable seniors as they were, and this made their lives even more hell basically like these seniors already injured enough in their lives, why like? Obviously there's a reason why she did it because they're easy targets ...

Katie: And why not make a legitimate, like retirement home if that's something that you want to do? Like, why does it have to be the worst? 

AJ: Yeah. Like if you're, it's weird, it's like, if you're in it, just [00:59:00] to con someone it's like doing a retirement home is a weird way of doing that. Like, I feel like there's other ways, like, I just feel like it's a really random sort of like, like facade. 

Katie: Yeah, it definitely is.

AJ: But like maybe they just figured that, oh, these people are super vulnerable. We can go, we can get all these people from these shelters, we can bring them up. And I don't know..

Katie: I guess, why not try to make it legit though? Like, you know, it's like a con right off the bat. 

AJ: I feel like, get a life! 

Stephanie: Yeah. I feel like they would have got away with it and they would've kept going on longer if the conditions that these people were living in were better. And, well kept and a normal senior citizens home, like they could have kept this charade going on forever.

AJ: And they had multiple homes, too!

Stephanie: And nobody would have questioned them because it was a normal senior citizen's home. 

Katie: Yeah. But they probably wouldn't wouldn't have made as much money because it would take money to keep it nice and hire legit people and the people that they were getting ,recruiting didn't have that kind of money. So they would have made no money.

AJ: Yeah, they're in it [01:00:00] to steal everyone's money. If you're having, if you have a legit staff that you have to pay, if you have legit conditions, you have to upkeep, you can't make money off that. 

Katie: If you have like good, nice food, not just like Kraft Dinner. Yeah. You're not making any money. So...

AJ: Yeah. So they were taking all of the government checks from all of these seniors. And I guess probably saying like, "oh, well we're just taking our portion for the rent out of your check. It'll come directly out of your check or whatever". I don't know what they were saying, but taking all the money, pocketing it. So it's crazy. So that's the story of the Laan family and the Muskoka murders, which is still unsolved. So yeah. Any final thoughts? 

Katie: Yeah, it's a weird one. And it's like a frustrating one too, because it's like a really shitty thing to do. 

AJ: Yeah. It is really weird. Like that's why I wanted to focus on it. Cause like, it is kind of unique. Like you don't really hear a ton of other ones like this and the fact, like, again, the fact that it's in Muskoka, which is like semi-close to me. And [01:01:00] also just like, I don't know. It's like, it's just crazy to me that that can happen. 

Stephanie: Yeah. It's actually not the way I thought this case was going to go. I thought you were going... I didn't know it was unsolved. So that was kind of a shock to me. I felt like the way you would, the way the story was going, I was like, "oh, these people probably got caught and like they're in jail now", but not the outcome that I thought was going to happen. 

AJ: Yeah. Like it's all those things that like, kind of has all the elements of cases that are like closed case. Like so straightforward. Like it seems so straightforward. It's like, well, they called and asked to lie and they were like telling all these fake stories and stealing all the money. Like, it seems so obvious, but it's still... 

Katie: people are dead and have a backhoe in their yard. Like it seems like, yeah, obviously that's what's happening, but yeah, there's no actual conclusion.

AJ: Like her shed is cleared out like a month, like, obviously, like, and it just seems so obvious. Yeah. But I guess they, and I, I feel like, I guess it kinda earlier it's like probably in the police's mind, it's like, they're pretty sure they know what happened and who did it. So in their mind, it's like not a mystery, [01:02:00] but they just aren't able to like fully prove it with something like concrete.

Katie: Yeah. They were like, they were smart enough, I guess, to hide the bodies where people aren't gonna be able to find them. 

AJ: Yeah. And like, the police were probably like, they were able to catch them on those other charges of like theft and fraud, like stealing all this money from the seniors. So like, they're guilty of that, but that was all the, like when they follow the money trail and all that kind of stuff, like, that's what it led to. Like, they were found guilty of those, but nothing that actually led to the murder, you know. Like for all like, like, like, you know, until it's proven in court, like Joan could have went missing totally separate from the family. And then David, he had, he had the bank card oh, he just helped himself to some of the money. Like that's not proving murder. It's just proving that fraud, like bank fraud or whatever it is. It's not proving that you murdered them. 

Katie: And just the people that they allegedly murdered, like people aren't family members, aren't looking for them. So it's not like, where are they? You know what I mean? It's like, nobody [01:03:00] knew really where they were anyway. So 

AJ: Yeah, that's the thing it's like, like I said, yeah, Joan's last contact with her family, it was like 76. So by the time she goes missing in 98, it's like 22 years already. So like, they're not thinking like a month after not seeing her that oh, she's missing. Like I hadn't seen her in 22 years. 

Katie: Yeah. So it's nothing like surprising. So nobody's going to be contacting the police about it anyway. So I mean, they were smart about it that way, but yeah. 

AJ: Yeah. But I guess they were like, they were smart enough to like avoid actual legitimate charges, but not smart enough to actually like go under the radar and not be suspected. Cause I'm pretty sure. It feels like it's probably them, but so they weren't smart enough to elude suspicion. 

Katie: Yeah. But they might never, never get charged with murder if, you know, if they even did do it. So, yeah that sucks.

AJ: Yeah. So, yeah, it's pretty crazy. But, um, [01:04:00] yeah, that's the Muskoka murders. So if you like what you hear, you can follow us on all the social medias like you do -Instagram @crimefamilypodcast, Twitter @crimefamilypod1, and on Facebook- our Facebook page is Crime Family Podcast. You can also send us your case suggestions or your podcast feedback or tips or whatever you'd like, let, let us know what you like, let us know what you don't like- all that good stuff.

So you can email us at crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com and, um, we'll see you next week. It's actually a two-parter- it's our finale episode. Stay tuned for that. That's coming out next week. So thanks so much. Take care. Bye.