Crime Family

S02E19: THE MADELEINE MCCANN CASE (PART I)

January 19, 2022 AJ, Katie & Stephanie Porter Season 2 Episode 19
Crime Family
S02E19: THE MADELEINE MCCANN CASE (PART I)
Show Notes Transcript

In part I of our season 2 finale, we discuss the high profile Madeleine McCann case- a case which is still highly debated and unsolved to this day.

The McCann family was vacationing in Praia Da Luz, Portugal in May 2007 when their three-year-old daughter Madeleine was abducted from her bed while her parents were at a restaurant with friends only feet away from Apartment 5A. Shortly after her abduction, the Portugal police begin an investigation into the missing toddler only to quickly zero on three major suspects: An interpreter named Robert Murat ( a British man who injects himself into the investigation in an attempt to help locate Madeleine) and the girl's own parents Kate and Gerry McCann.

In part one of our discussion, we talk about the circumstances and timeline surrounding her disappearance and the events directly following the abduction. Also, we take a look at these three major suspects who were given official "arguido" status in the early stages of the investigation and how the police's tunnel vision on these two possible scenarios may have distracted them from other leads that could have been much more promising.

Our discussion and dissection of one of the world's most high-profile missing person's case is one you don't want to miss!

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EPISODE RESOURCES:

The Disappearance of Madeleine McCann (Netflix Docuseries)

60 Minutes Australia (Maddie and the Monster):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvqu9Wd388c

New York Times (Madeleine McCann Archive):
https://www.nytimes.com/topic/person/madeleine-mccann

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Katie: [00:00:00] Coming up on this episode of Crime Family

 It is the Madeline McCann case. And when this case first broke, it became like international news. Like the media kind of blew up this case and everyone around the world was paying attention to what was going on. And so very early on one of the witnesses named Jane Tanner, she comes forward and talks to the police and says that she saw a man walking away from the direction of apartment 5A, carrying a sleeping child in his arms.

AJ: And also too, they say that because they didn't even rent that vehicle until weeks after Madeline was gone. I think it was 25 days after Madeline went missing was when they rented that car. That was an important piece because then if you're saying, well, if it was Madeline in there, then they would have had to put her in there like 25 days after she was killed.

Stephanie: So I feel like her fingerprints could be all over the place in that apartment because they could open the window. It's hot outside. They've closed the window at nighttime. Like there's a million reasons why her fingerprints could be on [00:01:00] that window!

Katie: Hey, everyone. Welcome to Crime Family! This is our two part season finale. Okay. So let's dive [00:02:00] into this case. It is the Madeline McCann case and when this case first broke, it became like international news. Like, the media kind of blew up this case and everyone around the world was paying attention to what was going on with little Madeline McCann.

So like we did with our other season finale for season one, we're just going to go into a little bit into the background of what happened, um, the kind of the circumstances surrounding the case. And then we're going to talk about the different theories that are out there and go into kind of what we think happened, or just kind of go down those little rabbit holes.

 To get started, Madeline McCann was a little three-year old girl that was on vacation with her parents and a group of friends and their kids as well. So Madeline's parents were Kate and Gerry McCann. Um, and it was revealed in the mini series documentary on Netflix called the Disappearance of Madeline McCann, that Kate and Gerry actually had trouble [00:03:00] conceiving naturally.

And so they did IVF and that's how they had Madeline. And at the time when they were on vacation, they actually had Madeline's brother and sister who were twins as well. And they, so they had three kids with them on vacation. So this family was from the UK and they were vacationing in Portugal. So they were at the Ocean Club Resort in Praia Da Luz, Portugal.

And they were with a group of friends. They were with David and Fiona Payne, Matt and Rachel Oldfield, Russ O'Brien and Jane Tanner, and Diane Webster, who was Fiona Payne's mother. So there was this group of adults and six of them were actually doctors, including Kate and Gerry. Kate was a GP and Jerry was a surgeon, like a heart surgeon.

Now between all of them, there was eight kids on this trip with them. And like I said, including Madeline and her two twin brother and sister. Where they [00:04:00] were at, it was like a middle class resort and the kind of place where there was tennis courts, there was pools everywhere. It was right by the ocean, and it was a kind of place where you could stay for like a couple of weeks at a time and not get bored. And this was a family friendly resort, obviously. I think one thing attractive about this resort was that they had like a kiddy club for the kids where the parents could drop off their kids to be looked after during the day, um, whenever they wanted so the parents could have some alone time or just kind of enjoy, relax without their kids there. Other people that were at the resort who remember the McCann family, and they said that they were just really nice people and they, all their kids got along. And they were kind of just like a friendly group of people that everybody got along with. So it wasn't like they were this group of people staying together. It was everybody kind of mixing together and just enjoying the family vacation. So the thing about this resort was that there was a child night time care center set up there. And so [00:05:00] it never really goes into like the hours or the rules surrounding the child drop-off but it seemed that you could drop them off in the evening and then the parents could enjoy themselves into the night and then pick up their kids. But I don't know exactly the hours, but the McCanns didn't use this because they thought that it was too disruptive for their kid's schedule. Like they would have to pick them up late or wake them up if they fell asleep there and drop them off too early and stuff like that until they just felt like not using that service was just better for their kid's schedule and so they didn't use it.

And the McCanns were staying in an apartment complex, I think that was either part of the resort. Um, kinda like apartment style setups. And they were saying in an apartment 5A, and so the way that this part of the resort was set up was like, there was apartments or lodgings like all around. And then there was like a pool in the middle and then off to one side was a [00:06:00] restaurant. It was called the Tapas restaurant. And this restaurant was about like a hundred yards away, which is like 300 feet away from their apartment, the apartment 5A and there was like mixed results... there were like, mixed reviews. Like some people the McCanns said at first that they could see their apartment from the Tapas restaurant.

So if they were sitting at the tables outside, they could kind of see their apartment, but others later that were kind of investigating or looking out, like say that they really didn't have a clear view of their apartment. Maybe like if they were, could see through the trees and see through like the canopy of like, like a plastic thing that was set up, it wasn't like a clear view where you can be comfortable like, "oh, I can see the doors of that apartment".

So that's kind of fuzzy about what you can actually see from the restaurant. Anyway, so this is important because while they didn't use the night service for kids, the whole group that was there with the McCanns decided to leave their kids alone in their apartments while [00:07:00] they would go out for dinner every night.

And they did this because they felt that it was close enough that they could see the apartments. And they kind of had this routine set up where every like 20 to 30 minutes, one of them would go up and she'd go out and check on their own kids. So they would kind of walk by the whole apartment complex, check on their own kids and come back.

And they had done this for like a whole week while they were there. And I think one thing to note is that the McCann group booked the same table at the Tapas restaurant for the whole time they were there. So it was every night, at the same time, they had this reservation at the same table and they did this back and forth every 20 to 30 minutes to check on their kids and it seemed to be going pretty well. 

The night of May 3rd, 2007, so this is like a week into their vacation, it's reported in that Netflix documentary that the kids at this point are like very, they're really tired of the end of the day. You know, probably from constantly being out in the hot sun for like a whole week, having fun, [00:08:00] just constant like simulation.

And so this particular day, Kate says that Madeline was like super tired. She couldn't even walk home from the kiddy club that day that Kate had to pick her up and carry her to their apartment. Let's go around 8:30 that night, the kids are fast asleep in their beds in apartment 5A after their storytime and this was when the adults head over to the Tapas restaurant for the night, like they had done throughout the whole vacation. And so around nine o'clock that night, one of friends in the group, Matt Oldfield arrived to the Tapas restaurant and he reported that everything was quiet and seemed fine as he walked past apartment 5A. And so just a little bit of explanation, like 5A was the last apartment, if you're looking at the front on the last, on the right and that's, and there's like a street that goes beside that window and everything. So it was like, you could walk by that apartment because it was right on the street or the closest one to the street. So he walked by there probably [00:09:00] after he checked on his own kids and just said that everything seemed fine and quiet.

And then at 9:05, Gerry, he goes to check on his kids. Um, so Madeline and her brother and sister, and when he gets to the apartment, he notices that the door's unlocked. But he goes in and he sees that Madeline and the two, the two twins are sound asleep, so everything seems fine. He goes back to the restaurant.

And then when it's Kate's turn to go around 9:25, one of their friends offers to go check on their kids because they're going to check on their own kids. So he's just going to pop in to their apartment as well. So he goes to their apartment and he says that the door to the bedroom is open a little bit.

And he can see some light coming through, like as if the shades to the window are up. And he said he heard what sounded like kids moving around in their bed, like rolling over or whatever. So he actually doesn't go in and check and look in there. He just doesn't [00:10:00] hear anything alarming, kind of hears them moving around and he goes back and reports that everything's fine.

So then around 10 o'clock that night, it's Kate's turn to go and she goes to check on her kids. She goes through the patio door, which is what everybody else has been using. And she, she goes to the bedroom door and she thought that the door was open more than it was before or more than it should be. And she goes, and she closes the door a little bit more, but then a big gust of wind comes and like slams the door shut.

And that's when she realizes, "oh, like the window is open in the room and it wasn't before". And so she opens the door and she goes in to see that Madeline is not in her bed and she's not anywhere in the room. And so she like immediately obviously starts to panic, she's yelling. And I mean, some part, some people when telling the story, they say that she runs back full force to the restaurant. And there's other parts [00:11:00] where some people say that she just starts yelling and then everybody comes from the restaurant, like all her friends come to the apartment. And so that's probably like, just like little details might be important, but I'm just not sure which version is actually correct. Maybe both.

Maybe she was yelling and she went to run back and then everybody came. So anyway, everybody's immediately like alarmed at what's happening. Everyone goes into panic mode and it doesn't take long before a lot of the other guests that weren't in their group are filled in and everyone is kind of like on the lookout for Madeline.

They know that there's a little girl that has gone missing from her apartment. And so a full-out search erupts pretty quickly. And everyone is like going in and out, searching around, looking for Madeline there's, even there's guests. And even like locals are starting to come out and search around the area.

And of course, at first people are just starting to think that she may have woken up and wandered off on her own. Maybe she got scared. Maybe she was trying to find her parents. I mean, [00:12:00] that's scary on its own because like I said, there's pools around the resort. It would have been probably, you know, dark and she could have fallen in a pool there.

They weren't that far from the ocean. She could have wandered down to the beach. And so that's kind of where my mind would go at first. Like, "oh, she's out there, you know, by the water". But I'm thinking of this. Another thing is like, people are running in and out scared that there's like contamination of the crime scene.

But of course when you're in that situation, like people aren't thinking of, "oh, we have to keep this crime scene pristine" because they're probably not thinking it's a crime scene. They probably were just thinking, "Madeline's not where she should be, but she's somewhere close by. We're going to find her".

And so I can just picture people like looking through the covers, lifting up the bed, looking up the lifting up, like the sheets on the bed, looking under the bed, looking around the closets, if there's closets, that kind of thing, just everybody coming in just to check, to make sure for themselves that Madeline's not there.

The police are eventually called. And that's one thing that they mentioned too, was at the crime scene when they got, there was a mess. And there was like a lot of contamination from people [00:13:00] coming in and out during the search. The police come on scene- there's the GNR, which is like the local police in the area. Um, and what you would think of like as your local police department and also there's the GB, which is the Portugal equivalent of the FBI. So they get involved right away as well. And so just kind of, you get like a sense of the population of this place, um, Praia Da Luz, where they were. It triples during like the tourist season so that time of year, it goes from about 400,000 people to like 1.5 million.

And so at this time there's a lot more people around then there normally would be. So when you're thinking of something that could have happened to Madeline, someone taking her, it could be the locals, but there's also so many tourists coming in and out as well. And so this Netflix docu-series emphasizes that, oh, the police department is like really stretched thin as it is.

And then during the season, it's like, you know, there's not enough manpower. And so [00:14:00] of course, like at this point they're thinking that, you know, Madeline didn't, she didn't just wander off cause they're searching the local areas, they're searching the streets, like the gardens that are around of course they're checking all the places in the resort and there's just no sign of Madeline.

And so, I mean in the early hours that they're supposed to be searching, there's like people are kind of, you know, pointing fingers at the police. Like they didn't work as hard as they should have. They didn't do as much as they should. Uh, and in that documentary, they kind of go on to say that while the police were supposed to be setting up like a check along the highway for every vehicle that was leaving Portugal to check their vehicle, but it was raining.

And they said that there was like this 40 minute stretch where they were kind of all just sitting in their own cars along the highway, presumably because they didn't want to get wet. So there's like this almost this whole hour in like a couple hours after she went missing that the police were just kind of sitting in their cars cause they, cause it was raining out. They didn't, they weren't checking cars. And so this was like a super critical time in the investigation where [00:15:00] it felt like they weren't doing. And I think it was things like this were kind of like the relationship between Kate McCann and the authorities got off to like a really Rocky start.

And of course they question the parents early on, and when they're questioning her, she just kind of gets very defensive. And, you know, she's saying like," this is my first trip to Portugal and it's definitely going to be my last!". You know, kind of like, I mean, she's obviously like frustrated, scared, panicked, but she's like just kind of putting up this front to the um, authorities. And so I, you know, I'm assuming like the Portugal law enforcement differs a lot from North America in some ways, but there's always that feeling like it doesn't matter what police department you're talking about, there's like always feeling of inaction when you're feeling that they're not doing what they should be doing.

And so, but I mean like the PJ is supposed to be, it's like regarded as one of like the top police authorities in the world. And so it's not like they weren't doing anything, but maybe it was different than what the [00:16:00] British authorities would have been doing or like North American authorities. And some people were saying, 

AJ: I think too, like in the parents' eyes or any, when any child goes missing, I think it to the parents, it's like anything short of finding the child, they're just not doing enough. Like there could be more that they're doing, they're just not. So I feel like, and especially if they're, you know, one of those police forces that just kind of keeps everything super close to the vest and they're not revealing information or saying things it's like, to them it could be, have the look that like, they're just not doing enough, but really they are like behind the scenes just to like play devil's advocate, but, you know, 

Katie: And yeah, I definitely feel like that was probably going on. And there was probably like a language barrier as well a bit. Like maybe they weren't saying as much because they just couldn't speak the language as well. And maybe there was like the translation issue as well. You know, they, something didn't translate very well. Like why would you say that? Or like, that's really inappropriate or something like, you know, just like the language barrier could be an issue as well.

Okay. So that's basically like the rundown of what [00:17:00] happened and like how it happens. Kind of like very overall summary of what, what went down and so very early on, theories and stories came out about what people think happened and that's where we're going to dig into some of these theories. 

And so very early on one of the witnesses named Jane Tanner, she was in the group that went down on vacation with the McCanns. So she was one of the McCanns friends. She comes forward and talks to the police and says that she saw a man walking away from the direction of apartment 5A carrying a sleeping child in his arms. And she said it looked like a small little child that he was carrying, wearing pajamas.

Um, and this was like right before 10 o'clock or between like nine and 10 before Kate went to check on the kids, um, and discover that Maddie was missing. And so this was probably when Jane was checking on her own kids or just in that vicinity, saw this person.

AJ: I think Jane, I think she was the first one to go look [00:18:00] or maybe one of the first and then it was after she went and looked, she like, she saw that. And then I think after then it was, uh, Matthew Oldfield that went, and that was the time when he like heard someone, some like rustling around and like didn't really look into the room. I think that was the second, but I think that was after Jane had saw that man leaving, I think, cause that was like 9:15, I think wasn't it? When she saw this man was like 9:15 which would have been early on. 

Katie: Well, yeah, I think the timeline is kind of fuzzy. Cause when we were we'll get into what kind of like people are thinking that Matt Oldfield heard rustling in the room, people are like, there could have been an intruder at that time, but he didn't actually look.

But if he would've, he would've saw somebody in there and then Jane Tanner saw somebody carrying a child. So they would think that that was after Matt checked. Cause then it was like they were in the room and then Jane saw this person carrying them away and then Kate came. So I think that's the kind of the timeline that they have. But either way.. [00:19:00] 

AJ: It still would have been like 20 minutes apart. Like if you, if they were in that room when Matthew was there and heard that, and then it's like 20, 30 minutes, she's... Jane sees that person leaving. So they were there for half an hour, like based on that timeline cause it was every 20 minutes or so. Right? I guess. 

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. So I guess the timeline is really not that clear. 

Stephanie: I feel like there's just so many people ...like witness, maybe witnesses or people that were like involved in, like, when she went missing that people don't really know like what time they went to go check on their kids. Like, it could have been 20 minutes it could have been 30, it could have been longer. It could have been shorter. 

AJ: Well, we know it was like half or an hour and a half kind of period of time. Right? Like 8:30 I think is when they arrived at the Tapas restaurant, like around eight 30. And then it was 10 when, when Kate went to look, so there's an hour and a half. And like, within that time there was at least two checks that we know of or maybe three. So it would have been around every half hour ish [00:20:00] on average, I guess. 

Katie: Yeah. And that's what they say at first. But then people are saying like, as they get interviewed, their stories kind of change. It's like, they were supposed to be every 20 to 30 minutes, but as they do, we're doing this all week, they kind of got confident that it was working and they didn't check as often as they said that they did. Or they said that they were going to, so whether this timeline is right, I mean, we don't really know because what we do know is that Kate found Madeline missing at 10 and somewhere in between there, someone had come to check on the kids. Like Matt had come to check on the kids and didn't look at them, but heard something moving around in their room at around nine, between nine and nine 30, I think is the timeline.

Stephanie: I feel like even if you heard something moving around, as a parent, I don't care like who you are or like you heard a noise. I would go, I would make sure I opened that door and check on my child. 

Katie: Well, yeah, isn't that the whole point of the check is to like, [00:21:00] go check on your kids? Not like stand outside the door and be like, yeah, that's all good.

AJ: But wasn't, he... Kate was going to go and then he offered to go because he was going to check on his kids and they were like really next door. So he's like, well, I'll just check on them as I go. So her kids weren't really the priority. It was like his kids. And he just was like, oh, I hear rustling.

They must just be in their beds or something. That's what I think what it was. Wasn't it. 

Stephanie: And my, yeah. And my other biggest pet peeve that's I shouldn't say pet peeve, but very like what frustrated me the most about this case is like, I don't care if you were on vacation, you want some time to yourself or time with your friends, I would, as a parent, never leave my child asleep in a hotel room while I'm downstairs, or while I'm across the pool to have like drinks with my friends. I don't care who you are. I couldn't, I, as a parent and especially in like a foreign country, like I would never, I don't understand why they thought that was OK. [00:22:00] That was the first thing I thought of when I watched the documentary. And the first thing I saw I'm like as a parent, no, thank you. I'm not leaving my kid unattended for any amount of time. 

Katie: Yeah. And, but I think they think that these 20 minute interval checks was going to do the trick. But when you think about it, they weren't checking on every kid, every 20 minutes, they were checking on their own kids, every 20 or someone, you know, someone who was going to check on their own kids every 20 minutes. So it was like, it could have been like over an hour in between people checking on one specific kid, you know what I mean? And so, and yeah, when, when Matt was like, Yeah, I'll go check on yours. Since I have to go check on mine", like he didn't actually check on them. He went in the apartment, didn't look at the kids physically and then left. So I'm, I'm like, you don't hear anything. I think that's almost as bad as hearing something like, go check on them, make sure they're in there. Silence is almost like as worse as...

AJ: Yeah. It's like you're already in the apartment. Why not just look while you're there? Like it takes two seconds.

Stephanie: And when he noticed that the, and we noticed the door was kind of [00:23:00] opened w first thing, well, why is the door opened? 

AJ: Yeah, wasn't it like a thing? Like, it was like, it was open quite far, but he was like, well, I don't know where it was left, so I don't know that it's like weird that it's open. Like they could have been left like that.

Stephanie: Who cares? If you, if you feel like you're like, if you you're skeptical, that the door was open, just open the door and check. 

Katie: Yeah. I think it's cause like they've been doing this all week and everything's been fine all week that it's like, yeah, nothing's happening. Everything's fine. It's just like, I think they just, I don't want to say it, but I think they got lazy and are like, we're going to put the motions as if we're, you know, doing this, but everything's been fine so far. So everything's fine still when it really wasn't, but you don't know, it's not until it's not right? So.. 

AJ: Yeah. Well, and also too, I think like we can all agree. Like we're getting into it more when we talk about like the different theories and stuff, but it's like, we can totally agree that they were irresponsible. You know, lazy, irresponsible, or like just, you know, negligent, whatever, but irresponsibility doesn't equate to what they're [00:24:00] later going to be accused of or the theories surrounding them. So it's like, we can all agree they're irresponsible, but that doesn't mean that ...their irresponsibility could have led to an opportunity that made it easy for something to happen, but that doesn't necessarily make them guilty if you know what I mean? You know what I mean? 

Katie: And I mean, you know, if this didn't happen, like Madeline didn't go missing, then it would be like, oh, like are going to check on them every 20 minutes or every 30 minutes every hour worked. Right. So they you'd think that, okay, if we ever did this again, we'll probably do the same thing because in theory it should have worked because people don't usually get kidnapped.

So I think that's kind of what, where they were coming from as well. Going back to Jane, when she said she saw somebody carrying a child, she kind of goes into a description. And what the police come out with was, um, it was, uh, a Caucasian male, about 35 to 40 years old. Medium build about five, 10 in height. And he was possibly carrying a child or something [00:25:00] that could have been mistaken for a child. And the police set up like a sketch of the person. And like, do you guys remember the sketch that they actually published in the paper and were bringing around to the locals and stores of who they thought did it, like, you know what sketch I'm talking about?

AJ: Oh My God! That's like something you would see on like Saturday Night Live sketch of like making fun of something like that. It like literally the egg shape with a little bit of hair and no face?

Katie: Yes! It was like, it looked like, I mean like looked like a kid could have, you know, started to draw something and then like, didn't finish. And that's when they were like, oh, this was, this person looks like, like it's almost like an insult to the investigation. 

AJ: It's totally like, I remember, I think there was like a video that I, that went viral of like news bloopers. And it was a similar thing. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, look at this amateur sketch of the... the suspect. And it's like a horribly drawn, like, thing. This one was worse than that! 

Katie: Yeah. In that blooper, and that was like, it really [00:26:00] happened. and the guy, when he saw the picture, like he was trying not to laugh and he's like, "oh, this is what the guy looks like". And they're like, "oh, they found him!" And he's like, "probably due to this sketch no doubt!" Like it was like a totally sarcastic thing. 

AJ: Yeah. They're like, I want to know who drew that sketch. Like they're making fun. 

Katie: And like this sketch was worse. Cause it didn't even have like face facial features at all. There was no shading for like skin color or anything. It was just like, I don't know. Like I feel like maybe there was so much pressure on the police that like, we got to look like we're doing something and like get something out there. But it was like, it would have been better if you didn't do anything because it looks like you're making fun of the situation. 

AJ: Yeah. And they published it! Like on the front page. You could see like the front page, it's like this faceless egg shape. Has anyone seen this person? Like, it's ridiculous. 

Stephanie: I'm not trying to laugh, but like I, when I first saw that picture and look, what the fuck is this? Like my child could draw that and she's two!

Katie: Yeah. I could have drawn that. And that says something like, I don't know. Yeah. It's kind of crazy that that even was published and that they were [00:27:00] passing it around to people. Like if everyone saw that'd be like, what the hell? Like, no, I haven't seen this faceless egg head. Like, so that was one theory. And this didn't go very far, obviously, because who can like point out, oh yeah, I know that guy! Like, there was no like distinguishing features about this drawing at all. So I feel like it made it worse. 

AJ: Yeah. I would be, I would say I would be suspicious of anyone who came forward saying," oh, I know that person!" It's like, well, no, you don't clearly. How? 

Katie: Yeah. It'd be like, oh yeah, I definitely know who that is. It'd be like, oh my God, that's weird. But later, like they came out with like a better sketch of someone that was actually walking with the child and they had like details of the child's pajamas and the person's clothing. Like, do you guys remember what that sketch looked like? This was like later, like almost at the end of the documentary.

AJ: Yeah. That was like, yeah. Drawn by like that person who was like, who did it up or whatever. But like, I mean, it still wasn't that great. Like obviously still a lot, a lot of detail, but compared to the other one, it was Picasso. 

Katie: Yeah. It definitely was. And like, the weird thing was, was people who were like, oh, like as this [00:28:00] case was like getting more high profile and like people were getting into it, the witness Jane, they were like, oh, she all of a sudden had all these details that she didn't have before. Maybe she was just like remembering things, like things were coming back to her, but everyone's like, well, why is her story changing as well? It was kind of like suspicion around that whole situation. What did come out later about like that sketch and the actual sketch of like in color of the person carrying, the girl or a little kid, um, they figured out that it was just somebody that was staying at the hotel, carrying their own child back from that night daycare that I had talked about. And so they actually did figure out who it was. And yeah, the sketch was actually pretty close to the actual real guy, which was kind of crazy, but that didn't actually go anywhere. Like they did figure out that no, that is not a suspect. He was legit carrying his own kid back. And yeah, so like I was saying, like, there was suspicion that came out of like the group as a whole, like all those adults that were there. Cause they were saying as they interviewed each one individually [00:29:00] and as they interviewed them again and again, it was like, their story was kind of changing and it was almost like they were trying to cover something up that they weren't going to say anything against or bad against somebody else. But I feel like that's doesn't have any credibility because we do think that this group of seven adults, you know, a lot of them are doctors. So like well-respected people are gonna cover up something that happened? Like... 

AJ: Yeah there was, like you said, there was a lot of speculation that they while they were getting like their details wrong of some of the things, but also too, you have to remember, it was like up until the, of Madeline went missing, it was just a regular night and they were drinking and like, you know, they're not necessarily keeping a super close eye on the exact timing of things. You know what I mean? Like it's only once she goes missing that, then they start looking back and like, oh, what time is this? What time is this? So it is possible. They were like, oh, it's this. And then like, they think about it a little more. And they're like, well, no, it was actually probably this time. So like, it makes sense that it could change. 

Katie: Also they were doing the same thing every night for a week. So, and they [00:30:00] were at the restaurant 8:30 every night, the same, same table every day. So it's kind of like their details definitely probably got mixed up from day to day, which is super... 

AJ: And they're like drinking every night. Right? 

Stephanie: I was just going to say, like they were drinking. And having a good time and like drinking like night after night after night. So their memory could be foggy. It could have been like Katie said that like different, they were doing the same thing every single night. So it could have been just mixed communication, mixed dates or whatever. I mean, it's hard to remember what happened on this specific time.

Katie: Like, I don't want, yeah. People say if nothing significant happens, you don't remember the details of that day. So if it's a normal day, especially when you do the same thing every day. Like, you're just not going to remember what day was what or what happened. So that's, um, super likely that they were just getting days mixed up and it wasn't like they were trying to hide something.

Stephanie: I do remember one of the, the, um, people in the documentary. I can't remember who it was. I think it might've been Matt Oldfield said that [00:31:00] that night they were just going to order, like they were going to take takeout and just order in their room, but they decided not to, and they decided to go downstairs instead. So it's like. Like if there's like, what if moments, if you decided to do that, or if you decided to like, put your kids in in the day.., the night daycare, whatever, like it's always those what ifs that are like always ingrained in your brain. 

Katie: Yeah. It's almost like a series of events.And it's like, well, what if they had put the kids in like the night daycare and then ordered in like, obviously this wouldn't have happened the way that it did. So it's like always, yeah, you can't look back and be like, oh, what if, what if, yeah. So I think accusing this group of trying to hide something up, um, isn't what happened. And so I don't believe that theory. 

And so moving on to another theory, um, in the days when the search for Madeline was active and people were still on the streets looking for her and organizing searches, volunteers were still out.[00:32:00] 

Um, there was a man named Robert Murat and he tried to like help with the investigation a lot. He acted like the liaison to the volunteers. He was telling people details about the case. People would ask questions, he would ask them questions about the case. And he was just kind of like rallying everyone together to get people's attention to the case, um, and kind of organized searches and things like that.

And so people thought that he was getting too close to the investigation. He lived very close to where Madeline disappeared from. He was a British man as well, living in Portugal. Um, and he was compared to like another murder that had happened. There was two girls that had gone missing and were murdered. The guy that did, it was very much involved. He was interviewed by police. He was very helpful asking questions, like kind of inserting himself into the investigation and found out that he was the murderer. And so people are kind of like, he's acting very similar to this guy that did that. Um, this Robert Murat [00:33:00] guy was in this docu-series like defending himself about how he felt about being accused. And he, so he was kind of very, instead of, um, like separating himself from the whole situation, he's still very much involved defending himself. And was like, I was just trying to help. And so he actually was like interrogated by the police and they eventually raided his house and they interrogated him and were quite aggressive with him.

And they did name him as a suspect actually very early on. And so when he's interviewed in the documentary, he talks about these early days and there's actually video of him organizing the searches and like him during all of this going on. He says that he felt like he was actually being framed and he was named a formal suspect and he was eventually released and there was never any actual charges laid against him.

So that was, I think maybe they were [00:34:00] kind of wanting a suspect and early on, they had this guy that was inserting himself. And so they, um, you know, took him in as a suspect. So what do you guys think about Robert? Anything? Have any opinion? 

AJ: I feel bad for him. Like, obviously I don't think he did it. I just think, I don't know what, cause it wasn't, it was, yeah, like he was an interpreter right at the beginning because he was fluent in Portuguese and English. So he kind of inserted himself at the beginning as an interpreter between the McCanns and the Portugal police. Um, so obviously when people kind of like there have been instances in the past where people who are involved insert themselves in the search efforts or like the investigation, even though they're the person who did it and they know what happened, but I don't know. I feel bad for him in the documentary, like with like Jane Tanner's thing, where she said like, he's she saw him, someone walking away from the apartment. And they said like, that was important because it was like determined that like,that [00:35:00] could have been walking towards the direction of Robert's house, which was really close by, but it's like, it's a very loose sort of thing. It's like, there's probably lots of houses or people who live in that area. 

Katie: Yeah, there's only so many directions you can walk and his house happened to be in one of the directions. Of course. 

AJ: Yeah. So I think like, I think he just sort of, unfortunately kind of fell victim to this sort of, you know, everyone wants the police I'm sure they want to make a quick arrest. They want. You know, they don't want to be known as these like incompetent police officers who just didn't solve a case and go on for years and years. So it's like, they were probably kind of felt pressured to solve it really quickly. So they were like, oh, well he has.. he's someone that we can look into right away. And they were kind of trying to force sort of this narrative of like him being involved. But I don't think he was really involved in any way. Just kind of wrong place, wrong time. 

Stephanie: Yeah. That was one of the other frustrating things I've found about when I was watching this documentary, how like they pinpointed him as a suspect because of his like weird involvement in like looking for Madeline and how [00:36:00] he would like knew like details of the case or whatever. I always feel like, like we see a lot of cases where kind of like.. Going back to like the Jeffrey Deskovic the very first one that we did, like where they like want him as a suspect. They like made him look like a suspect and like ultimately like arrested him for the murder of that girl where he was never even involved in it. I just feel like they always do quick. Like AJ said,, quick searches and quick, like pick up of people because they want to solve it and they want to get it over with. So they don't have to like do this long drawn out thing. But I just feel bad for people who would get like, stuck being a suspect, because then it's like they're looked at so definitely for the rest of their lives, because like people will see them so negative, negatively. Like I just feel, I don't know. 

Katie: Yeah. And it did remind me of Jeffrey Deskovic too, because he said, um, like this Robert guy said that the police had him in their car and they took them on like this [00:37:00] long trip somewhere. And while they were doing that, they, the police were raiding his house. It was like, they just trying to get him out of the way.

So that's kind of like a sketchy thing that was sort of similar to what they did to Jeff, that they took Jeff out to um, like a police department that he wasn't familiar with, like somewhere so he couldn't just leave like that kind of thing. And so I feel like that's like a tactic that was used, but anyway, Robert was released because they didn't have any evidence or anything on him.

And like, this is like in this documentary on Netflix for saying like, oh, he was like a weird guy. Like, he was kind of like socially awkward. And he was like this grown man that lived with his mom. So they were like, he definitely fits the profile of someone that would do it. Like he had a wife and kids back in Britain, but he lived in Portugal. Like, what's up with that? Like, so I think they were just like grasping for like, trying to get this guy. And yeah, I do feel bad for him because he does seem like a nice guy that, like, he found like this, oh, this missing girl. Like, he, he found out about this missing girl and the kind of latched on like, he has like a purpose. And he was like, yeah, I want to help. And they people took that the wrong way. So that sucks.. 

AJ: Yeah. And also, I feel like it could have the opposite effect because if they do kind of zero [00:38:00] in on this one person, like they're trying to just get a quick arrest or they're trying to, you know, upkeep this image that they're, you know, that they're good investigators or whatever, it's like kind of the opposite effect. Cause if they're focusing on this one guy, it's like, they're kind of blind to all these other potential leads or ways that they could be looking. And then, then it's like, by the time that they cross him off as a suspect and they have to go back to square one, but it's like, by that time, all the other potential leads could have disappeared. So it's like it could have had the opposite effect of what they wanted. 

Katie: Yeah, definitely. And it does come out later that he kind of got a good amount of money as compensation because his name was like all over the tabloids. Like I said, this was like a worldwide thing. So his name was out there as a suspect. And so he got money as compensation for defamation and things like that, which I feel like he probably doesn't think it was worth going through all that. But anyway, he did get compensation for it at least. 

AJ: Yeah. So he was like the first official suspect, right? Like very early on. And then they eventually like said that it's not him. So then they had to move on [00:39:00] to someone else. Right?

Katie: Like the next theory that was going on. So, so something else that had come forward, like these little stories, like, um, there was a blonde girl with an adult at the gas station. She had like a really sad look in her eye and she had a British accent apparently. And they reported her saying, "can we go see mommy now?" As if like this person she was with wasn't her mom. And she was like the sad, scared look. So I dunno if that came, I don't think that went anywhere that someone just came forward, but they found out that, oh, it wasn't really, um, anything to do with her.

And so there was so one distinctive thing about Madeline was that she kind of had like this, um, like a birthmark, but it was like right in her eyeball. And so it kind of looked like her eye, um, pupil was like misshapen, cause it was like darker. And so that was like a really distinctive thing. So people were saying if you see that, then that's Madeline. And there were people that were coming forward saying that, yeah, they did see a girl that matched that description and they had, she had that thing in her eye, but none of these sightings ever like panned out or anything. [00:40:00] And so I don't know if people actually did see her, they thought they saw her, they saw someone else with like the same, really similar eye detail, but none of these sightings ever amounted to anything.

And so early on, they didn't really have any other suspects besides this Robert guy and so people started pointing fingers at the parents and there was suspicion surrounding the parents that like it did creep into the investigation. And there, there was a journalist who was interviewed during that Netflix documentary. And she was like involved in the case, um, like really early on like day one. And so her name was Sandra Felguerias and like she says, like the first thing that a rational smart person would do would be to like, in this situation with when there's a missing child would be like, not let anyone into the crime scene and she's like, those parents didn't do that. So that's really suspicious. But I'm thinking like, would that be...

AJ: I didn't agree with that at all. 

Katie: No, I didn't either. Would that be your first reaction? Like no, nobody come in this room, nobody come in this apartment. And you think about like, if their parents had done that, like blocking [00:41:00] off, not letting anyone come search, that would look even more suspicious. Don't you think? 

AJ: Yeah. When she was saying that, I was like, okay, I don't know where she's getting her information. I'm like, maybe that's the first thing she would do. And I mean, I guess like if you're someone like us, who's like super into crime and knows all this stuff about crime scenes and all that stuff, it's like, yeah, you might think that, but for the average person, it's not going to be on your mind. And like also, cause you don't know. And also there was a good point too, that I read or I saw on this other, other stuff about the case, it's like, they can't say you have to block off the crimes because they don't know it's a crime scene yet at that moment, they just know she's gone. Like they don't know if she's going to be found in 20 minutes or she walked out on her own and she's going to be found like in another part of the resort. Right? Like they don't know it's a crime scene, so yeah. You're not going to think you need to secure this. Like I would be sketched out if frantic parents said that first off. Like a first thing they said is that like I'd be sketched. 

Katie: Yeah. And even me as, you know, like someone that is kind of familiar with true crime, cause [00:42:00] we like, listen and research about it a lot, but I don't even think it would be my first reaction to be like, "nobody come in this room!" Because like you said, like don't know that she's been abducted and it's just like she's missing. And so as many people as possible helping is definitely something that you would want. And so I think maybe because, um, this journalist, was a journalist. That was kind of maybe how she thought as well. But I think her saying that, oh, any smart, rational person would block off the crime scene right away is not accurate at all. And I think they were just kind of like, she's just trying to sensationalize the situation and point blame at the parents.

And like, that's not the only thing that people were like pointing at a parents for. So there was other things that came out about like the window in the apartment, they were saying like the Kate was saying, when she first went in there, the window was open and the shutters were all the way up. And so when I think of shutters, I think of like the two piece shutters that like open kind of like a door, but these were shutters that kind of look like heavy-duty blinds from the [00:43:00] outside. And so you have to like lift them all, all the way up, like a blind kind of. And so she said that, that they were all the way up when she went to look for Madeline. And then when Gerry comes into the room, he closed the shutters and then went outside right away to see if he could lift them up. Um, and he said that they could be opened from the outside. But then the police investigation was saying like, oh, it's actually really difficult to open those from the outside. So, and then they were looking for like fingerprints on the window and the window sill and the only prints that they found, were actually Kate's fingerprints. And it was like, they found like a smudge of her palm across the window. And I was like swiped in a way that you'd have to, to open the window, not close the window as she was saying. And so when they were saying, oh yeah, like it was very obvious that the crime scene was staged to look like somebody had come in and abducted her through the window. I don't know. Cause they said they couldn't even find like glove marks. Somebody wore a glove and opened the window. So like what do you guys think about that situation? 

AJ: I think [00:44:00] it's one of those scenarios where like, I don't find that the most compelling piece of evidence. Something about why it would be the parents. Like, I think that's kinda weird. And then when you think about the fact that like, well, the door was unlocked, so why does this person coming in through the window? Like, why does that, why does that, what they jump to it's like, that would have to be how they came through. Like the door was unlocked. Like anyone could have walked in through the door. So it's like, why is this window what they're checking on? I mean, I guess, cause she said, they said that they were closed and then they were opened. So that was what led them to think that, but... 

Katie: Yeah, and they were saying like the, the crime scene didn't look anything like they described when the police eventually got there, but I'm thinking like, yeah, the door was unlocked. Somebody could have come in and maybe went out through the window. So they wouldn't be seen like, you know, it was just easier to get out through the window cause it was facing the street. So maybe that was the situation. And I'm also thinking that like maybe Kate, I don't know. I guess they were saying, because the way she described it, it wasn't how it looked when they got there, but maybe she had closed the window and then she said, well, I should open the window. Cause that's how it was when I found them. Like, you know what I mean? Like maybe she just like [00:45:00] panicked and it was trying to make it look the same, but I don't know. But I just feel like that's not enough evidence to be like, oh yeah, like they were, they staged the crime scene for sure. 

AJ: And didn't they... I also saw something too. I don't know if it was in that documentary or if it was like another report that I saw, but there was also speculation or theory going out that like, they thought that Matthew Oldfield could have been involved when he, he, that's why he offered to go when Kate was going to go. And then they said, well, he offered to go. And then he like went in and then gave her to someone on the outside of the window. Like he opened the window and passed her through the window to someone who was waiting outside. That was like one theory they came up. But again, it kind of like grasping at straws and just trying to put any sort of scenario together that... 

Stephanie: Why would he, why would he be involved in something like that that doesn't make any sense?

AJ: Like, why is anyone involved in anything? 

Stephanie: Going, going back to her fingerprints, being on the window, I feel like they were, this was like at the later end of their vacation, right? Like they already been there for a week. And this was like at the end of the week, right. [00:46:00] When Madeline went missing? 

Katie: Yeah. They'd already been there for like seven days. 

Stephanie: So I feel like her fingerprints could be all over the place in that apartment because they could open the window. It's hot outside. They've closed the window at nighttime. Like there's a million reasons why her fingerprints could be on that window. Or anybody's fingerprints on the window. Cause they were already there for seven days.

Katie: And they find her like, oh, her Palm print, cause she swiped the window open, like, oh, she opened the window. It was like, well, she could have done that the first night they were there.To let the breeze in!

AJ: You know, our mom, the first thing that she would have done is when she would got in that place would have been opened up the window to get a cross breeze 

Katie: You can't..There's no timeline on that swipe, you know what I mean? She could have done it any day.. And multiple days

AJ: I was there with mom in Portugal and that's the first thing she did in all the Airbnbs she went and she opened the window to get a crossbreeze!. 

Stephanie: Like exactly. Like you want a window open. It's Portugal, and AJ, you were there and you were there in the summertime. It's hot there. Right? I'm assuming at that time of year. And so yeah...

AJ: well we went, that would have been May 3rd. [00:47:00] That was, we went in may to May, 2019. So it was like, may it's hot there.

Stephanie: They had kids there and the kids will be hot after playing all day in the sun. You want like a nice breeze and like it's a million different reasons why the window would have had that fingerprint on it. 

AJ: Yeah. Like I think it's just like, it's like far-fetched and it's like, if that's what they're going on, it's a very loose sort of.. 

Stephanie: And why would they stage the crime scene for Madeline to go missing? They had two other children. You know what I mean? Like there's two other children that they had and like, why would just be like, why would they point fingers of them doing something just to Madeline when they had other two children doesn't really make sense to me.

AJ: Well, I mean, I find it weird that somebody would come in and just take only Madeline, because I guess the other kids were young because I was thinking like, wouldn't it be like a risk to like, keep the other kids there who could have seen something who could have said something? You know what I mean? Like that's implication. I feel like it's more weird that it was...

Katie: But those kids were really little.. Like babies [00:48:00] almost. Like, I think there were like one or something. And so they obviously wouldn't have been able to describe what they saw. They probably couldn't even like talk like a full sentence and, but taking three kids would be obviously way harder than taking just one. And she was a little bit older, so it would have been easier. I feel like to take care of her or do what they were going to do. You know what I mean? 

Okay. Yeah. So, so that was a piece of evidence that I don't feel like adds up to point towards the parents at all. Um, but there's a lot more that comes out that people feel like points to the parents. Um, and so one thing they do early on is they bring in like crime scene dogs. So they bring in cadaver dogs and they bring in like blood sniffing dogs into that apartment to see what they can find. And one of the cadaver dogs like hits on the cupboard in the apartment. And so people are like, oh, there was a dead body in that cupboard. And so people are thinking that maybe Madeline was dead and the parents were hiding her until they could figure [00:49:00] out what to do in that cupboard. And because there's theories that come out, that they would give them. Um, I don't know. I forget what kind of medicine it was, but like some sort of medicine to make them sleep better so that they wouldn't have to, they wouldn't be waking up and the parents would have more time to themselves kind of thing. Um, and so they're thinking maybe they overdose on that and Madeline died and then they put her body there cause they were like panicking and they didn't know what to do. Also the rental van they're thinking, oh, they put Madeline in the trunk to get rid of her because the blood sniffing dogs like hit on something in the back of the van as well, and so, that was a theory that came out that the parents accidentally killed her and then covered it up and put her body somewhere. So I don't know. What do you guys think about that theory? 

AJ: Okay. Well, I have thoughts about this theory. Okay. First of all, it was actually not right away when they brought the dogs in. It was actually like a few months after I believe it was like August or something when they brought the dogs in. As far as I know.

Katie: Well, there was like, yeah, I'm not sure what the [00:50:00] timeline either, because then that same journalist that I had mentioned earlier, she talked on a 60 minutes Australia episode and she was saying that they brought the dogs in even before the police did their full investigation. And so all of the DNA and evidence that they collected, there was like 600 pieces of DNA was all contaminated with like dog hair and dog slobber. And so, I don't know, maybe somebody brought a dog in, I think they did bring other dogs in maybe not cadaver dogs. And, but weren't fully trained for that kind of situation. Maybe just trying to sniff stuff out. So I don't actually know what happened, but they were saying a lot of the DNA evidence was contaminated with dog dNA.

AJ: Okay. That's about, I think it was Crime Junkie actually. Cause I listen to Crime Junkie's episode. They said it was August, or a few months after that they brought these specific dogs in. So yeah, I don't know the timeline of that, but because there was a thing of like, the apartment was like closed off to the public for like a month after it happened. And then they opened it up again to other [00:51:00] tourists who were renting it out between like June to August. And then they brought the dogs in, in August who then the cadaver, because the cadaver dogs and the bloods sniffing dogs are two separate things. Right? The cadaver is like a dead body that they're trained to detect dead bodies. And then the blood sniffing to detect blood. The dogs went crazy in that apartment, both. So they said there was a dead body or blood, but they apparently, if they did that in the timeline, if it works out to be like a few months after it's like, well, how do they know that that dead body was Madeline, first of all? And also there was open to the public who knows it could have been because they also say in the documentary that the dogs are trained so well that like they can pick up blood and scents from like years ago. Right? So it's like, if that's the case, well then there could have been like a murder committed in that apartment like 10 years ago. 

Katie: That's what I was thinking too. And why does it have to be a murder? Like they don't sniff out murdered cadavers. It could have been somebody who had a heart attack passed out on the floor for a few hours. And like, you know what I mean, like died on the floor and doesn't have to be necessarily be a murder. Like how I even tried to look up, how old is [00:52:00] this building was like, how many years have people been renting out these apartments? I'm thinking like this, these buildings are old, right? Like 20, 30, 40, 50 years old. Like the chances of there being somebody dead in there from like natural causes or anything is pretty high. I feel.

AJ: Well, I mean, like I wasn't in that town, like Praia Da Luz, which is like, they all in the Algarve coast part of Portugal. But when I went to Portugal, it was like Lisbon and Porto. And like it's European cities, old, old, old buildings, like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. So I don't know about that specific building, but like, if it's a hundreds of years old building, like it could have been hundreds of people who were dead in there. From any reason, like naturally people like over the centuries or whatever, like, you know, there could be like, you know, people die of natural causes in there. So I find it weird that it's like, and nothing in the documentary, anything I saw that said like the, the scent that they were picking up was Madeline's right. It was just that there was a scent of a dead body in like the parent's closet.. Kate and Gerry's closet that was in their bedroom. It picked up on, and then by [00:53:00] the sofa in the apartment as well. So like there were there that's like evidence that there was, did a dead body at one point. 

Katie: Yeah. And it hit on.. it could have been like an old grungy sofa, like how old is that thing, right? And how many people have sat on there? And they picked up blood, but it could have been somebody cut themselves. You know what I mean? Like, and then they both, they could have bled pretty badly from like a cut from something else that had nothing to do with it. So I feel like, yeah, 

AJ: Yeah this is a vacation home. Like it could have been an, a, a person cooking, something in the kitchen who cut themselves with a knife and like their blood's going everywhere. 

Stephanie: Yeah. I never believed that theory of the cadaver dogs being like, I never, when I was watching it, I didn't really like think that that was plausible because I didn't really believe that they were smelling like Madeline body. Because like, like you said, it could have been a hundred people in that apartment from like whatever year. And so I never really believed that theory, so I just felt it was stupid for them to even think...

AJ: And like they do say in the documentary too, that it's like no case has [00:54:00] ever been solved because of a cadaver dog, like that could be used to like help with the investigation or lead them to a certain conclusion, but like to bring in cadaver dogs, isn't going to really solve the case. And also the fact that they're trying to explain, well, how accurate is the cadaver dog? And they're like, well, they're so well-trained, they can sniff smells from years ago. It's like, well, that makes their argument less sound because then it's like, well, they're picking up scents from years ago. So like it's irrelevant I feel, but I mean the car trunk is a little bit weird that there's also ... they picked up something on the, at the back of their rental van or rental car, but like also the same thing could happen. There could have been a dead body in the trunk from three years ago or whatever. 

Katie: Yeah. I, and I guess it's like, what are the odds that, oh, there was a cadaver in their apartment. And then there was also a cadaver in the trunk of the car that they rented. But I mean, it's possible. I feel, and I don't know, 

AJ: ..Like it's like kind of suspicious, but like... not really,

Katie: It does, it is, but it's not enough to be like, yeah. And [00:55:00] it wasn't like, like you said, Madeline's scent that they were picking up, it was, you know, dead body scent. So if it was Madeline oh yeah. Obviously, but it wasn't. So I mean, it doesn't, their argument's not very strong. 

AJ: And also too, they say that because they didn't even rent that vehicle until weeks after Madeline was gone. I think it was 25 days after Madeline went missing was when they rented that car. That was an important piece because then if they're saying, well, if it was Madeline in there, then they would've had to put her in there like 25 days after she was killed.. So it's like what? They hid her body in the, in the apartment in like the freezer for 25 days. And then they make the argument that like every inch of that apartment was looked at during the investigation and people going in and out, like, where are they going to hide a body that no, one's going to see it for 25 days and then take it out and put it in that car.

Katie: Yeah. And all those people that were in that apartment, like searching for Madeline when she was first reported missing. Like, 

AJ: I mean, they're not going to look in the freezer, but like you think like the 25 days somebody would have, [00:56:00] and also people say like the media, every like every movement that the parents made that whole time was like under such intense scrutiny from the media. Like there would've been no way that like the cameras or the media is not going to capture them, taking her body out of the house. Like, you know what I mean? I feel like it was such a sensation sensationalized case that like the paparazzi were everywhere. It's like if they're carrying a dead body out of the apartment, into the back of the trunk, it's going to be seen. You know what I mean? 

Katie: Yeah, definitely. And I feel like, why would they make this big, oh my God, she's missing before they got rid of the body. Like that doesn't seem very smart at all. You know what I mean? If someone was going to do that, like, why be like, there's a dead body in the freezer, but I'm going to alert the police before we get rid of the body. Like, that's the dumbest thing.

AJ: And yeah, because it doesn't make any sense at all. 

Katie: Yeah. And another like tidbit that they were saying like, oh, because their mother was seen like, especially early on carrying, like Madeline's little stuffy toy with her. Like she'd be talking to, um, like the media and she'd be holding on and like hugging Madeline's little toy. [00:57:00] And everyone's like, oh, "when somebody kills somebody, they're always like a, a treasure or a trophy that they keep". And I'm just like, oh my God. And like that, there's, you know, she's holding onto Madeline with this little stuffy because she feels so much remorse. I'm like, that's grasping at straws if I ever saw it. 

AJ: Yeah, it's, it's a ridiculous argument. And also too, like, they were the ones who were in the media and they were the ones who were like angry that nothing was happening. And they were like trying to keep the case alive and trying to like advocate. It's like, I feel like you wouldn't do that if you were guilty, it's like, you're going to like, not want the police to poke around. You're going to not want the investigation to progress if you're the one who's guilty. So the fact that they were the ones who were like advocating for that, it's like, it doesn't make sense. 

Katie: They travelled all across Europe.. And like were keeping people engaged and like, don't forget about Madeline. I'm like, why would you do that? If you were the ones that actually did it, like you'd think you'd want to shut that down fast and not bring it to the entire world. So that doesn't make sense. 

AJ: Yeah. And I know in the documentary they do show a clip of one of the [00:58:00] journalists or one of like the people in the press ask Gerry I think it was about if he used sedative on Maddie on Maddie, because they were trying to push that whole narrative of like, oh, they tried to like give her a sedative so that they could be at the restaurant and not have to worry. Um, and then he says, I mean, it doesn't look good.. The clip that they show it's like, do you do that? And then he says, we're not going to comment on that or something or kind of make, he doesn't come out and say, absolutely not. Like he says something, that's kind of like, well, that's been pretty well addressed or like, we're not going to comment on that. It's like, well, why wouldn't you like, you know what I mean? If it's a no, it's a no. So that was kind of weird, but it's not like... it's far from guilt. 

Stephanie: I mean, I don't know if anybody does this, but like, if your child's having trouble sleeping, like you can give them like melatonin or something like that to help them sleep. So maybe he did give them something, but.. 

AJ: But it wasn't melatonin. It wasn't melatonin. It was like, I forget the name of it, but.. 

Stephanie: No, I know some sleep aid. I'm just saying like, some parents just give it to their kids. If they're traveling to help them sleep because of time [00:59:00] difference or whatever. So I feel like maybe he did give her something, but it's not. Enough that would...

Katie: Yeah. And also these are both doctors, so I feel like an overdose is very unlikely. And then I'm also thinking, well, maybe he gave her some and then Kate didn't know that he had given her some and she gave her some, some more or gave her more, you know what I mean? Like that kind of thing could have happened, but obviously, but I feel like, and then she died because of that, well, that would be something to cover up, but you don't go hide her body somewhere. You know what I mean? Like you, I don't know. 

AJ: And then yeah, like the fact that their doctors, it makes an overdose unlikely. I mean, there's not anesthesiologists. So I mean, they may not know the exact amount, but you know what I mean? Like it's just...

Katie: But I feel like it's very hard to like for a kid to overdose on kids medicine, like it was like a kid's medicine that they were being accused of giving. Right? Like, you'd have to have a lot, like a lot, like, you know what I mean? Like chug the whole thing. I feel for it to be a really serious overdose that would cause death.

Stephanie: And then like, that's true. And another thing they were saying, like if they gave Madeline [01:00:00] something, cause she didn't wake up or whatever. They thought maybe they gave her siblings something because they never, never woke up when all that commotion was going on. Like they said that no, like those when, during the whole entire commotion that was going on, the people coming in and out, people screaming people, they never woke up.

I mean, some kids...

Katie: They were exhausted too, though.

Stephanie: But some kids sleep through stuff.

Katie: Yeah. I mean, up until I had kids, I could sleep through a fire alarm. Like the fire alarm would be going off in the building and like conked right out. That happened. Both of us were like together, sleeping in the same apartment. And like the fire alarm is going off and we didn't even know until someone told us later and like, yeah, the fire alarm went off. 

AJ: But I feel like a one-year-old is different though, 

Katie: I guess. Cause like they don't sleep as well, but you know, they could have like exhausted right from the sun, like just busy. I don't think it's out of the ordinary to feel like they slept through it. And I don't. And especially since it was like only 20 minutes maybe. And like they grabbed Madeline, got out in 20 minutes. I don't know.

AJ: Just one other thing too. They thought [01:01:00] that it was weird that she, when Madeline wasn't there, she left the apartment, she left the two twins in the apartment to run over to the, to the restaurant and say that Madeline was gone, which they said it was kind of weird. They're like, why wouldn't you just use your cell phone to call them? Or like she said, they said like the restaurant was so close, you could have screamed from the balcony of the apartment. And that someone would have heard her. Like, she, they said it was weird that she would like leave the twins, especially after your child was just abducted. Like, why would you leave the kids alone in that same apartment? Which like, is a fair point. But like, that's the only thing that's like weird. And also too, like, it could have been like, she was just frantic and that was what she thought to do. And I was like, oh shit. Maybe I shouldn't do that. And go back to the apartment. Like, I don't think that's like a malicious thought out thing, it's like, kind of just frantic in the moment. 

Katie: Yeah. I feel like if that happened to me, you're probably just not thinking straight and you probably would run, like to get as many people as possible, but there are some statements that say she actually did stay in the apartment and scream and then people just came to her. So I don't know if she actually did leave because some people are saying that she just screamed loud enough for everybody to come to the [01:02:00] apartment. So don't really know though. Cause there's different stories. 

AJ: It's just kind of like it's the whole, night's a fog. Like nobody knows when things happened or how they happened or who it happened to, or there's so many accounts of like the same version of events or like the same period of time. There's like so many different accounts. 

Katie: Yeah. I think it is because, like we said before, they were doing the same thing for seven nights. This was like the seventh night and they were drinking. So it's just like, things are fuzzy. Um, yeah. So all this stuff coming out about the parents I think is like totally people are just grasping, trying to blame them. And I think that they had nothing to do with it at all. Whether they meant to kill Maddie? Of course absolutely not! Whether they killed her by accident and were trying to cover it up. No, I feel like that didn't happen at all either. So let's just clear that up, that the parents were not involved.

AJ: Like before, like we thought we were going to do this case before we decided [01:03:00] on this case for the, for the show, it was like, I was familiar with the case obviously, but I didn't know, like the super big details. And I remember like, there was the speculation of like, oh, maybe the parents did it. So then when I watched the documentary and I watched other things like the 60 Minutes thing I just think like the fact that it was such a heavily debated topic of if the parents were involved based on what the cadaver evidence? That's like, not reliable at all. I just find it there's like nothing concrete and every little thing, I feel like that was brought up as to why the parents could have done, can easily be debunked. So like, to me, I was shocked to find out like how little solid evidence there was leading to the parents, because I knew that the parents were like one of the prime suspects at one time. So I was like, oh, there must be something that's like damning, but if there really isn't.

Katie: Well, I know, I remember before this Netflix documentary, I think I had watched something else. And I think that this one that I had watched focused on the parents being guilty. And so it was very heavily towards the evidence towards the parents. So it really did make me think like, [01:04:00] oh, maybe they did do it. That was kind of my conclusion coming out of this other piece that I'd watched years ago. Like, I can't remember what it was, but yeah. But then when you kind of put everything together, like that's, that's such a minor, like little details that I feel could never amount to them being guilty. And I think they were actually official suspects at one point. Like they did come out that they were official suspects and of course their name was like all over the tabloids. And like every, you know, it was like slander and like defamation all over the place. And there really was nothing to concretely say that they had anything to do with it. And they actually, I think they got compensation as well for that.

AJ: Yeah. Cause they were like, I forget the word now, but there was that word that they would use for like, they were officially given that status, which just basically means like.. Suspect. Them and the Robert Murat person were like... 

Katie: Yeah, the word sounds like Guido or something. 

Arguido, or something..[01:05:00] 

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. They were given that status and then it was dropped later on, but like, yeah. It's just, but I think we can all agree. Like whether, like they said, if the parents did it, there's only so many possible scenarios. Like they plan the murder or it's accidental and they covered it up for the only two things. And I think we could all confidently say that we don't think any of those things or either of those things happened just based on the evidence or lack of evidence. 

Katie: No, and I really don't think that one of them, like the Matt Oldfield guy was involved either. Like, I don't think anyone that was there, like in that group of friends had anything to do with it at all.

AJ: Yeah. I think, and obviously like every case, they say that in a large amount of the cases, like you have to look at the parents initially just to rule them out, at least so I can understand why they would have come under suspicion, but like everything that we've said about like the dogs and like the sedatives and all of that stuff, it's like, all of that stuff can be so easily debunked that like, I don't think there's any credibility to it.

Stephanie: Yeah. And like, going back to like [01:06:00] the parents being suspects, like, I feel like they were talking about like how, like Kate didn't look like she was grieving. Like she never touches look emotional motionless, but I feel like your daughter is like missing. Like you're, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't, if you don't, if you're overreact, then you think like, there's, you're faking it. But if you like, underreact, it's like, oh, they don't, they have no remorse for their daughter missing. Like she was so... I felt like she was so scrutinized for like anything. She did like the parent together, but I felt like she was more focused on like her emotions and how she looked and like the way she as a mother. Like if you lost your daughter, like, she just didn't seem like that emotional, but I mean, people grieve in different ways. 

AJ: Yeah. And it's, and it's one of those things too. It's like, if you come at it from the perspective of thinking that the parents did it well then, well then everything that they do, you're going to have a reason as to why you think it's suspicious. You're going to like, like you say, it's almost like, they're like, okay, [01:07:00] I think the parents did it. And then it's like every sort of explanation is that grasping at straws. And like, how can we make this piece of information fit with our theory that they did it? So obviously if you approach it like that, then they're going to, you're going to have all these reasons why they did it. But all of those things that they have that they think links it or proves it, it's like very weak, weak evidence. 

Katie: Yeah. And people say that they're doing it for attention, because like I said, they traveled across Europe to keep, um, people's eyes on the. But, you know, I feel like any parent that wants to solve this, a case, like this is going to do stuff like that. If they have the means, right? And this, these were like, middle-class like they had money. So they were able to do things like that. And of course, a lot of people aren't able to do stuff like that. So it, maybe it does seem like they were very much attention focused and like, oh, look at me. Cause they were in the media a lot, but that was their, just their way of keeping it alive, I think.

AJ: Yeah. And instead, like I said, a little bit before, it's like, I think we can agree that they were irresponsible with leaving the children there, [01:08:00] but being an irresponsible parent doesn't equate murdering your child.

Katie: Well, yeah. And also I feel like what they did wasn't even that bad. Like I wouldn't even consider it like neglect or like they a crime, what they did. Right? They, they had like a system, they were on vacation. It was supposed to be like a safe family resort. I don't know. And they, they didn't use a daycare that was there. They left. Yes, their very young children alone when they shouldn't have, but they could have done things a lot worse than they did.

AJ: Yeah, that's true. And it's like, it's only because she was abducted that, then they look at it as like, well, that's why, because that happened, but like, think of how many other parents probably have done that in the past there, or, you know? 

Stephanie: Yeah. I was gonna say like, she wasn't the like Kate and Gerry, weren't the only ones that left, like left their children alone. That the whole like seven of them with eight kids altogether, they're all left alone at the same time. 

AJ: Yeah. Like they were all doing it and they were all doing it. None of them thought all of the, none of them thought that it was weird. So it's like other people probably [01:09:00] didn't think it was weird either until it happened. And then there's well, yeah, it's weird.

Katie: Yeah. And they had like that they had the system of going to check on them and so that they could have not done that they could have been like, oh, they're asleep. We could leave them there for four hours, five hours until we get back. Like, but they didn't do that. They were actively checking. That's what could have been a lot worse. 

AJ: Yeah. And I think, I think there's also, um, mentioned, I don't think they mentioned it in the Netflix show, but one of the couples, I think we're using a baby monitor. Like there was like a baby monitor at the table or something there. So they were like trying to do everything that they could with what they were doing to be safe like that, those parents, at least. So they were like keeping an eye on their kids through the baby monitor to obviously not Kate and Gerry. 

Katie: Yeah. But yeah, so it wasn't like they were doing nothing and I mean, it's not like, oh, you're on vacation so you can like relax and not to think about it. But I mean, they were on vacation trying to have a good time. And so, I mean, I don't put the blame on them for what happened, because it could have been worse, but either way, like if [01:10:00] they, if they were at the apartment, it would probably wouldn't have happened. Right? And if their kids were in the night daycare, it wouldn't have happened. But yeah, so they could have done things better, they could have done things worse. Either way, the parents are not to blame. I feel. 

AJ: Yeah. 

Katie: Okay. So with all that being said, um, this is where we're going to end part one and then part two, we're going to continue on with some other theories kind of more disturbing theories. I think that come out that have come out in relation to this case. So stay tuned for part two.

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. Like we're going to talk about like some weird occurrences that happened around the time and the area near the apartment that might make it look sketchy for and other theories as to why, or who could possibly be involved. That is not the family. So stay tuned for more on this crazy case.

And we're also releasing part two today as well. So you don't have to even wait. You can keep on [01:11:00] listening.. .