S02E20: THE MADELEINE MCCANN CASE (PART II)

In part 2 of our season finale, our discussion about the high-profile Madeleine McCann case continues!

In this episode, we discuss the various strange occurrences that took place in the days immediately preceding and following Madeleine's abduction. This includes a suspicious non-profit orphanage scam that almost had devastating consequences for one mother and her daughter, a strange woman mysteriously looking for someone to deliver her new daughter to her, and multiple reports of strange men lurking around the apartment complex in the days leading up to the kidnapping. Plus, we discuss the shocking revelations related to a man named Christian Brueckner- a sexual predator with a sordid past and strong ties to Maddie's disappearance.

Our discussion and dissection of one of the world's most high-profile missing person's cases is one you don't want to miss!

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EPISODE RESOURCES:

The Disappearance of Madeleine McCann (Netflix Docuseries)

60 Minutes Australia (Maddie and the Monster):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvqu9Wd388c

New York Times (Madeleine McCann Archive):
https://www.nytimes.com/topic/person/madeleine-mccann

Transcript

Katie: [00:00:00] Coming up on this episode of Crime Family: 

AJ: ...And she kind of like hears a noise downstairs. So then she goes and rushes downstairs and she finds that same man from, that was at her door earlier in her house by her child, like staring at her child. 

Katie: So like the most recent theory or need that has come out of this case, unfortunately has to do with like pedophiles and child sex rings and things like that.

But, and also there was like other stuff that came out that like someone had kidnapped her that wanted a child. Cause there was like that woman that came up to some guy and was like, "oh, do you have my new daughter? Do you have my new daughter? 

Stephanie: There's was just like so many cases out there of children gone missing. And like how many of those children have never been found that could be in the sex rings like for years and years? Like, it's just so [00:01:00] sickening to think of.

AJ: Hey everyone. Welcome to part two of our season finale episode about the Madeline McCann case. So obviously if you listen to part one, we talked about the disappearance of Madeline McCann and kind of, um, the timeline of events surrounding that. And [00:02:00] also kind of our thoughts on the main theories that came out in the beginning about that man, Robert Murat who they thought might've been involved and also her parents and we kind of debunked those theories or why we don't believe those were credible at all.

So in this episode, we're going to be talking about potential other suspects that lead away from Madeline's parents. And it's kind of like some strange, strange occurrences that, that occurred in Portugal around the time that Madeline went missing them are definitely suspicious and could be tied to her disappearance and could not be tied.

Um, so we're going to get into all of that. So obviously the two, the two major theories, like I said, were Robert Murat and the parents, but also the documentary that we watched, "The Disappearance of Madeline McCann" that was on Netflix does kind of go into a few other suspicious sort of scenarios or things that kind of happened that are definitely of note and I think are connected in some way. So there were some reports in Portugal [00:03:00] of, I guess, around the time that Madeline went missing of these men who were like going up to tourists, or they were like going up to knocking on people's doors and they were trying to raise money for an orphanage that apparently, actually never, when they researched never actually existed.

But they were going into people's homes and asking them for this money for this orphanage. Um, and then there was this one scenario of a mom who had this person come to her door, was talking to her about this orphanage, trying to get her to raise money. And the mom says that this whole time that she's talking to this man at the door, he's like facing her, but not really looking at her.

He's kind of like looking past her to like something that's like behind her. And then when she like turned, she notices that like her daughter is like there so this man is like standing at the door, just staring at her daughter, which is like, obviously super creepy and weird. So I guess she like makes some excuses to, she doesn't have any money, she can't [00:04:00] donate or whatever. So just trying to like get him away from the door. Um, and then I'm kind of unclear if it's like the same day or maybe the next day, but the mom is like, I guess she's upstairs, um, doing whatever she's doing upstairs. And then she kind of like hears a noise downstairs. So then she goes, rushes downstairs and she finds that same man from, that was at her door earlier in her house. Like by her child.. Like staring at her child. And then like when she comes down the stairs, like scares him off and he like runs away. So that's like super weird and obviously super sketchy. And I obviously she reported this to the police.

Um, but that's kind of tied to like these other men that were also going around collecting money for this orphanage that I guess when they, when I said they did, they did, they did research that apparently this orphanage orphanage was non-existent. So was this like just a scam to get just money? Like, was it just like a money sort of scam or was it something more sinister where it was like a [00:05:00] ploy in order to abduct children? Like, do you guys have any thoughts about that?. 

Stephanie: Yeah, I think it was obviously a scam to get money, but I also think it was like a tactic in like the sex child, sex ring. I feel like they're collecting these children for that. 

AJ: What do you like, do you think, like the whole orphanage thing was just deploy or like a story so they would like just knock on doors and see like which houses had kids inside? Oh yeah. You think like that was like, yeah. So it wasn't about the money at all? Like, cause I was thinking like, as they mentioned, I'm the documentary and I was thinking like, is it possible that these people are just like con artists who are just trying to scam people out of money, but they just so happened to be around the same time that these, that Madeline went missing.

Stephanie: I don't think I had anything to do with money because when you're talking about that guy who was in that person's house and like staring at her child, like that just gives me the creeps. And like obviously he's there to like look at the child [00:06:00] and nothing else, but the child. And the fact that the mother was upstairs and he came in the house, knowing that there was a child there, like he came back knowing that there was a child there. So it had nothing to do with money. I think it had to do with them going to the house, maybe children answered the door, or maybe whoever answered the door. They noticed that that children were around. I think it was just all about the children, nothing about the money. 

Katie: I think it could have been both. Like they could have been trying to scam money also at the same time, seeing where kids lived and how old they were and things like that. But it also could have been not about the kids and about the money, but this particular guy who was involved in this scam had a thing for kids, you know? So we could have been just like him being sketchy when this whole scam wasn't actually about that. So, I mean, you, it's really hard to say with just one isolated situation.

AJ: Yeah. I just remember like seeing that the dog gives me the creeps, like it's so sketchy. Like how did that mom, if I was that mom I would've moved. [00:07:00] A. Like that day, I would have moved out and never went back to that house. That's so sketchy. He just runs away. Like if she hadn't been so quick to, like, he could have been like, literally seconds away from abducting, the child and running out and never seeing it again, like, 

Katie: well, that's like the ultimate nightmare of like coming down the stairs or like waking up and like, there's just like a random person standing in your house. 

Stephanie: Like, I can't .

Katie: That scares me the most..

Stephanie: The, I can't, no, I can't. I can't, I think as much as a true crime person that I am like, I'm almost my own worst enemy, because I hate watching shows that have children, like people like staring over me or like kids getting it. Like I just make my like, oh, this gives me the....

Katie: Well yeah, it's scary enough like if you don't have kids and there's some random person in your house, like that's scary. But then, and then when you put kids like into that mix too, it's like even scarier. So it's just the worst. 

AJ: It's sketchy that she noticed . It was the exact same man from the day. So it's like, she kind of put the pieces together, like, oh, that whole thing about the orphanage was a ploy. He saw that I had my daughter here and then came back [00:08:00] like the next day or that later that day to try to take her or something. 

Stephanie: So imagine if she didn't come downstairs at all, like within like, like 

AJ: If she didn't happen to like hear a noise. Cause I think that's what like alerted her and then she went down and then she saw him. So she didn't hear that noise, like the floor creaking or whatever. I don't know what it was, but like, like I said, it could have been like seconds away from taking the child and just running off it's super sketchy. And like, I guess I think it's in the documentary they mentioned, or like, what are the chances that like, do you think that it's connected to Madeline in some way?

It's like, what are the chances that there's just like creepy man, like almost abductingthis little girl and asking about orphanages. And like, do you think that's just a coincidence that it just happens to be in the same area of the same resort in the days leading up to Madeline missing? Like it wasn't too far away from that. Like I think it was like a week or. It was a really close in time to that. So what are the chances, but then I think like, obviously she would have described this man. She saw him twice, so she would have had fairly a good description. And then like, I [00:09:00] guess she obviously would have went to the police with that. So then obviously nothing really came of that or they weren't able to like tie that to Madeline directly. But what are the chances that like those two separate things are not related? That's what I was wondering. 

Stephanie: Yeah. That's really hard to say, like it is, I don't know. Look, I don't think it would be a coincidence, but I mean, it could be like, it's just hard to say, like, I don't know. I just...

AJ: Cause, this is a small sort of town. Portugal has quite a small population and like the small town or area of Portugal is not super populated. Like obviously there's people there and like it's a big tourist town. So like, I just think like given the size of the population, it's like, I feel like it's a very strong coincidence to think that like those two things would have just happened within like very close together and not be somewhat related. 

Katie: Yeah. I also, I think that they could be related, cause it seems like a brazen thing to do to break into an apartment that's so populated on this resort. And I think like, that's, uh, you know, it's [00:10:00] like a really brave thing for someone to attempt, but then for someone to actually come into your house, that you like someone to come into someone's house after they've already seen you and then come back to like, get your kid when you're upstairs. Like that's also a very brazen thing to do. So I feel like, I feel like with the day time, so I feel like after that, with what happened to Madeline was almost like easier, right? Because there was no adult around and it was easier to grab her at night, rather than in the middle of the day. It was like, oh, this is an easy target. Even though for most people, it really wouldn't be in a way. So I feel like... And when you see this documentary and investigate this case, like how much child sex trafficking there is around the world. And even in this area, it kind of seems like, well, that's not a stretch to be like, there could be this whole connected ring of kidnaps.

AJ: Well, that's why I think there's like a disconnect between, because I think like this area, like, of course, like the feds and like people say that like, it's, you know, Portugal is a relatively safe [00:11:00] country. And like this area is like, it's like the McCanns felt that it was so safe that they felt safe leaving the doors unlocked and their kids inside. So it's a kind of a disconnect between that and like all of this kind of sketchy stuff happening and things, it seems like a very unsafe place to be. And then when you go into some of like the people that they say were in the area, it could be tied to Madeline's disappearance like this place isn't safe! It's a fucking cesspool of like creeps!

Katie: People don't know that though. And also I think it was from this 60 Minutes Australia. Episode called Maddie and the Monster, Or it could have been this other Netflix documentaries. They said that at the time that Madeline disappeared there wasn't like a sex offender registry set up for Portugal. So it's like, they didn't even know who was around that area when this happened, like who was involved in sex crimes. Cause it just wasn't set up. So I feel like it was happening, but people didn't know about it. Cause things like that didn't exist at this time. 

AJ: Yeah, that's true. But also I'm pretty sure it was that Netflix documentary as well that there was an [00:12:00] incident- I think it was like a couple of nights before Madeline was taken where like Maddie had mentioned to her mother something about "why didn't you come when we were crying before?" Kind of like kind of insinuating that like something had happened that woke the children up and then they were crying that maybe someone had been there before. They were in the room or in the house and it woke them up and then they started crying and it scared them. So they ran away. 

Katie: Oh yeah, I remember that!. And then like when they actually took Maddie, it was like the second attempt and they were successful. 

AJ: Yeah. And like, by that time they knew how to get in more. Cause they'd been there before.

Katie: I feel like they're so determined to get this one girl though. You'd think like, if they tried and then that happened, it'd be like, okay, well that was close. I'm not doing that again. But I guess that they were professionals and they were used to this kind of thing. Like that one little thing isn't gonna scare them off.

AJ: Yeah, that's true. But also like, why wouldn't that have alerted Kate? Like if your child says," why didn't you come when we were crying?" Or I guess it would have been maybe a million reasons why they were crying, but like, it would have been weird that like they would have, that would have happened. [00:13:00] And then they would have like the next night again, left the door's unlocked, like I don't want to get back into the parents, but...

Katie: Yeah. But I feel like every time your kid cries, I don't think every parent rushes over to their kid. Every time they cry, you know, especially at night, if they're crying like this, you have to go back to sleep. So I feel like them crying and Kate, not running is not a red flag. 

AJ: Yeah, that is, yeah, I guess like, but also too, wasn't it? I think you mentioned maybe you mentioned this in part one that it's like the door to the apartment wasn't visible from the table they were at, right? Like the apartment itself was, but like the door that was unlocked, wasn't visible. So like someone could have went in there without being seen. Right 

Katie: It really wasn't a clear view like the parents kind of made it seem like there was because they're like the way their restaurant was, there was like the canopy of the restaurant and like the plastics you're going to have to like maybe situate yourself, like sit down and like look up over to kind of see, even see the apartments. Being able to be exactly sure what was happening at every second [00:14:00] wasn't possible. It wasn't like a straight shot to the apartment. 

AJ: Yeah. But then also kind of tied to, I don't think it's tied to like the orphanage kind of scam thing, or maybe it is, but there was also reports that like somebody had, I think they mentioned this in the documentary too. It's like somebody who would like, during the day, either that day earlier, the same day that she had actually was abducted, somebody had like, noticed like someone walking out of the gate or something. Remember? Don't you remember seeing that in the documentary? It's like somebody had seen somebody kind of exiting either like, I don't know if it was for that apartment or maybe it was like for the next apartment but like, there were like reports that like, there was like a man, like standing outside the apartment for a long period of time. Kind of like maybe staking it out. I don't know if it was that apartment or the next door apartment, or then there was like another report of like, there was a man seen, like exiting through that patio door or through like a gate kind of looking like flustered or sort of like agitated or something. So there [00:15:00] were reports of like men, like creepy, like being creepy and like standing around that area for like staking it out or something. 

Stephanie: Yeah. I saw, I heard that when I was watching the documentary, I saw, they mentioned that. It's kind of creepy how many people they seen coming, like men creepily coming in and out of that, like, that's just creepy to me. Like it wasn't just one person.

AJ: Yeah. It's like this, like there's people around that are not stalking but like keeping eye on. That's why it's like, could have been like, yeah, on the sixth night, it's like, that's why they had such the same routine every night. So it's like, that person could have been like staking out that apartment for many nights leading up to that. And it was like," oh, around this time, they're always out". So I'm going to like, make my... they kind of new sort of. 

Katie: Yeah. So I remember there was like reports of like multiple witnesses saying that they saw a man and they described him like he had like pockmarked face or something. Like he had stuff on his face or maybe it was like, [00:16:00] yeah, they said it was like an ugly guy, had an ugly, ugly face, like poor guy if he was just like some local, but, and also like, yeah. So pockmarked face, or like when you think of like some has really bad acne and they have like the scars left behind. So that's kind of what I pictured. And also there was like reports of a couple of blonde guys that were kind of like hanging around and kind of like talking to each other, but they were there constantly or consistently that people noticed something and people didn't really know who they were. So there's definitely reports of like different people hanging around. And I think it's a good point that maybe somebody noticed the routine that this family had. Like every night at 8:30, they were away from the apartment and left their kids. But also it comes out that the restaurant like the, the guestbook was like out in the open or it was like available to the public. And so it was reported in that guest book the reason why that they've let this whole group of people book the same table every night was because they wanted to be close to their apartment because they were leaving their kids unattended. [00:17:00] And that like, anybody could read that. So somebody could have seen that and been like, okay, like now we know who our target is gonna be. And so they wouldn't even have to notice the routine and like it was written out for them. So that was like a really big mistake. 

Stephanie: Yeah. I feel like, I believe like lack in security or lack and like, I, yeah, like lack in security all around in that resort,like as big as it was and it as popular as it was, you feel like there'd be more like crackdown on security for certain things, especially like a guest book. Because usually when we go to, I mean, I don't go to fancy restaurants where I have to like sign a guest book. Well, now I do cause of COVID but still. Like, I don't like, you know what I mean, though? Like it's out in the, like, it's like not most guests books I know are out in the open for the whole entire, like people coming and going to see. 

AJ: And not only like the guests and not even like just the guest book, but like a description of like, why they're booking the table. Like, is that arelevant? Why would they need that in the guest book? Or like in the reservation? Or like out in the open? Like why would it need to have a detailed, like, [00:18:00] "oh yeah, they're leaving their children unattended". With unlocked. I don't know if it said unlocked doors, but you know, leaving their children unattended in this apartment. That's why they need this table. Like, that's super weird. 

Katie: I don't know, I remember in the documentary and one of the guests was saying like, "well, how is it fair that this one group can book this table for the whole week when everybody else has to do with that the day of, in the morning?" And he's like, "oh, well it's because, you know, they needed it for this reason".

And maybe, I don't know, maybe like the restaurant was like getting that question asked all the time, like why it's not fair to these people get this table every night. And they were like, well here, just look. Here's the guest book. Here's the reason why we do stuff.

AJ: So they're giving that out to the public? Oh yeah. Okay. It's because their children are unattended in that apartment. Like that seems weird. Like, I think, I couldn't understand if maybe it was like a note that like for the staff, like, you know, if. Like saying like, okay, this family is booking the same table every night because of this reason. But like, for them to like, be publicly telling the guests that is weird. I think. 

Katie: It is weird. It doesn't make [00:19:00] sense why they would do that. And it probably because, I mean, it probably was a relatively safe place. Like everyone says, oh, this is like a safe town. This doesn't happen. It was like a safe resort. And so nothing like this ever happened there before. So nobody was thinking that this was going to happen. People's guards were definitely down. Right? They weren't thinking that this was going to happen because it never had before. 

AJ: I don't know if this ever came up to the documentary. But like, do you think it's possible? If it's another theory that like, do you think like maybe there was like people who were on staff were in cahoots with, you know, like people on staff could, if people are privy to that information?

Katie: That was brought up in the documentary, like briefly, it was mentioned that somebody on staff in that restaurant knew the routine of this family and alerted, you know, someone they worked with in a sex ring or whatever, or someone they knew that was into kidnapping kids and they told them about it. And that's how these people knew about it. So, yeah, it's definitely a possibility. 

Stephanie: Yeah. That's what I was just going to say. Like, you would have to [00:20:00] know where Madeline or where these children were staying. Like you would have to like, cause it all kinds of different apartments. Like you would have to know where these kids were for you to come in, get the kid and go out. Like, you'd have to know your way around the resort. You'd have to know like what time these kids were going to be sleeping and where, where they were specifically were.

AJ: I think you would have, I feel like it would even be exactly like, it would have to be someone who knew the routine who knew that the door was going to be unlocked or who knew that they were going to be away from the apartment at this time, because it's like ballsy to just like break into someone's home. You don't know if that someone's going to be home or something like, so I feel like it had to be someone who at least was keeping tabs on what the routine was throughout that week.

Katie: Yeah, it could have also been locked. But when you think about that guy, that just walked into that house when that woman was just upstairs in the middle of the day. So like breaking into an apartment in the middle of the night, doesn't seem like that far of a stretch...

AJ: But it wasn't the middle of the night either though it's like 9:00 PM. [00:21:00] 

Katie: It's still like a reasonable person to be like, "well, the kids are probably asleep at that time" and maybe, and maybe everybody else is too. Maybe they're tired. They just think everyone's sleeping. I don't know. But it doesn't...

Stephanie: But you'd also have to like know like, like what the child looks like. So you'd have to, like, in the middle of the day, you, if they're out, like you'd have to like be spying on them to know the routine. 

Katie: Well, yeah, that was kind of, one of the theories was like someone watched them and knew where they were staying and knew they'd be awake at this time.

Stephanie: It could have been somebody working at the kiddy club, knowing like who they are and like when they're going to be there, when they're not going to be there. And when they're going to go to sleep and where they are staying.

Katie: It could have, and it also just could have been a coincidence. Somebody testing the doors and this one was unlocked. So they went in, if the door was locked, maybe it would have been a different story.

Stephanie: It also shows like very like lack of security, like, cause if I, if I think of a resort or even if a hotel room, like you can't just go and look and people like go upstairs and look in people's rooms, you have to have like a [00:22:00] key you'd have to have like... 

AJ: But it wasn't like, I think I'd say like resort, but it wasn't like a resort in the traditional sense that you would think of. Like, it's not like, you know, like in Mexico, when you go to a resort where it's.. It's very much like you're on the resort and it's like, you know, a very secluded area. It's kind of like a, that's like a resort city sort of area for tourists, but it's not like separated from the rest of the town. And I feel like it's kind of dispersed among sort of like the people who live there. Like, what's his name? Like Robert Murat like his house was literally feet away from that apartment. So he's living, he's like someone who lives there, he's a local and he's living like right next to the resort and has easy access. You know what I mean? 

Katie: When you say resort, it's not like, when I remember when I, one time I went to a resort in Mexico, it was like, you, you go on like a shuttle and they take you like down the road. And then they open up like these gates to the resort. And like, then the gates closed behind you and everything is like, you can't get off the resort unless you go through there. And like, people can't come into the resort. It's like, and people are like, don't leave the resort because it's not a safe place. [00:23:00] But like this, no, this was just like a build, like a big building with like apartments around it and like a pool in the, in the town, you know? So it was just like, you could walk down the street and go into the resort if you wanted. 

Stephanie: But don't you have, is it kind of like a hotel, like a reception desk where you have to go and like, see..

AJ: There's no lobby! It's like seperate apartments.

Stephanie: Oh, okay. Okay. 

AJ: Well you saw the documentary. They show like the layout. It's like, not like a hotel. 

Stephanie: Look, when I think of like a, like a resort I feel, or like anything you go into and there's like a lobby there and like the receptionist and you have to like ask for you like a room key and like ask who's there.. 

Katie: They're like probably is that they probably give you keys to your room, like your apartment and stuff. If that's part of the resort or these apartments just could have been separate, close to the resort, you know, like, you know what I mean? 

AJ: Well it was the ocean club, wasn't it? Was like, that was the name of the whole place was the ocean club. 

Katie: Yeah. I mean, there probably one somewhere where you go in to pay and get your keys and stuff and like, you know, whatever, but it wasn't like a [00:24:00] hotel where you go up the elevator, it was like just apartments everywhere. 

AJ: Yeah. So yeah, I guess we should, maybe we should have clarified that at the first part. Like when we say resort, it's not like what potentially, like the average person would think of as a resort. It's not like, like a gated community. That's separate from the rest. It's like, you can like walk in and out of the resort, like few steps away from there, you're on like the public streets. So it's like, you're kind of. 

Katie: I did say that at the beginning. I said, yeah, I said that this part of the resort, anyway, it was like apartments all around with like a pool in the middle. And then I said their apartment was right by the street right where people could walk by. 

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, it was very much like it's possible. Like obviously somebody can walk in and it's because of that, that somebody can walk in and abduct a child, right? Because it is so like easy for someone off the street to just walk in. Whereas it had been like a more closed off resort. You know, and that's, that's why I think that's the draw to this resort. It's like, because you don't feel like you're [00:25:00] in like a touristy resort. Like you're actually like kind of part of the community in a way on a resort, but you're like still a part of like the town. 

Katie: And it was like a kid friendly resort. So it was people would go there if they have kids probably. And people that like kids that I guess anyone who liked kids could be there. So, but like people that are going to... people that are going to pay to be in like a resort like that, usually it's because they have kids.

AJ: So, and I guess it does seem kind of weird that it's like, if you're having a kid friendly resort that you could have, it'd be so easy for a random stranger to walk in. It's like, and if you're a local, it's like, well, you know that this is a kid resort. So if you're like a creep, you know that there's going to be kids there. 

Katie: It's like, yeah. So it really wasn't secure in that way where like the public was like excluded. They really weren't. They could come and go as they wanted.

Stephanie: But obviously the parents felt safe enough to leave the kids there while they went to eat.

AJ: Yeah. So that was like just some [00:26:00] random, weird occurrences that were happening in like the area of town or near the resort. So I definitely don't think those are just coincidences that like these random men are just like being creeps and like, just like staking out, like areas surrounding the apartment. I feel like maybe it's tied to that, but then also there was quite a high profile case that's mentioned in this Netflix documentary about Madeline's case and it is the murder ofJoana Cipriano. And this was actually a murder that occurred in 2004... or it's I guess it's a missing persons. Technically I don't, it's like whether it's missing person's case or a murder, but it happened in 2004, which would have been three years before Madeline went missing, but it was also another high profile case that happened in the Algarve region of Portugal. And it was the disappearance of, um, She would have been eight years old, I believe at that time. Um, and eventually her mother and her uncle were found guilty of the disappearance slash murder. Um, but there was never any body that was ever [00:27:00] found. But the story was that the, her mother had I guess walked in on like the uncle and the child engaged in like incestuous sex or something. So then they murdered the child and the uncle apparently, or allegedly, um, admitted to chopping up the body and then throwing it into like a local pig sty and stuff, but they never found the body. And then they took the mother in for interrogation. And this is like the same.. this is the PJ. So it's the same police department that's involved in Madeline's case. There's pictures of the mom after her interrogation, where she's just covered in bruises. And it looks like she'd been horribly beaten up. And then there were allegations of abuse that the police basically tortured her and forced her into giving a confession. Cause she does confess to the murder and she gives this story. But then later, like the day after she signs the confession, she like recants the story. She says that that never happened. And basically the police tortured her until she gave that confession. But then the police say, will know, she threw herself down a flight of stairs trying to commit suicide [00:28:00] and that's why she had all of those sort of marks all over her. Eventually she did go to trial and she was convicted and was convicted of the murder. They spent 16 years in jail, both the mother and the uncle spent 16 years in jail, sentenced to 16 years in jail. And apparently it's one of the, it's the first ever murder case in Portugal that took place without a body. So they never actually ended up finding the body. So people, their speculation of like, maybe it's just a missing persons case. Maybe she's still alive somewhere because they never did find conclusively whatever happened to her. But the mom was saying that she didn't kill her and then all of this stuff. So it was like a whole like controversy there. And I think that that's brought up in Madeline's story just to kind of showcase like the PJ and like how kind of shady they could be. And there were some officers that were charged with like misconduct in that case. So they're saying like, it's not impossible to think that like there was also misconduct in Madeline's case. So I think that's, that's where they kind of drew that comparison. [00:29:00] 

Katie: Yeah. And it also came out that, um, so this guy, he was interviewed in that Netflix documentary and he was the former chief investigation coordinator. His name was Goncalo Amaral and so he's in it quite a lot, and he is kind of talking about the case, but he ended up writing a book about the, this case. And it was very much towards like the parents being guilty and he was kind of going into some of the, like the evidence that they had, that they never released and kind of like why they were guilty. It was very defamatory. And so kind of like someone who was inside the police department coming out with this book and like, it shows him at book signings and stuff like that, like kind of trying to make money off this case. That is a very sketchy thing to do I feel. And also like he, um, he got in trouble for that. Like the family sued him and he was ordered to stop. Like there wasn't, they weren't allowed to publish any more books or sell any more books. And he, I [00:30:00] think, um, like the family got money because of that, like the defamatory things he was saying. So that's like very, yeah. Not appropriate for someone inside the police force to write a book about a case, and like, blame and point fingers at the family! 

AJ: And it was like a documentary too that came out in Portugal, like to tie into the book. Yeah. And also I guess, yeah. That's also why they brought up that case. Cause he was also involved in that case of Joana Cipriano. Like he was one of the officers investigating that case and it alleged or says that he was not present at the time that this mother was tortured or beaten, but like he was kind of tied in there as well. So I guess it kind of just shows you that he's kind of a corrupt person. Not saying that he was like involved in Madeline's disappearance, but he obviously isn't like above being sketchy.

Katie: Yeah. So I think he had like definitely a financial motive to blame the parents and like make it look like they did it almost. 

AJ: Yeah. Um, so those were a kind of a [00:31:00] few other interesting things that were brought up in the documentary, but there is like kind of the newest sort of revelation that came out or newest suspect that's being looked at. Katie. I know you have more information on that. 

Katie: Yeah. I'll get into that. Also, just as an aside, I want to say like some of the things that they brought up in this Netflix documentary about like some of the sex trafficking rings that are out there, like they go into like the dark web and how sketchy that is. And I mean, obviously we don't, there's no way for us to know how sketchy that is. Cause we I've never been to the dark web and you like, can't get to those places unless you are like an investigation investigator or like a really shitty person . But like the, some of the things they say how like, oh, in like overseas and some of the poor countries, like, rich men will fly in on their planes and like, just grab a child, do whatever they want with it for a couple of days. And they just drop it back off at like the dump where they live. And that this is just things that people know about. And I was like, where is like the mass media on these kinds of things? Like, you know, they just like...

AJ: Jeffrey Epstein!

Katie: Yeah. They like do like briefly mentioned this and then they move on. And like, one of the guys [00:32:00] in the Netflix documentary is very much like" We have to get the word out there about this kind of thing!" So I feel like that is something that's very under reported just as an aside. Cause that struck me as like, holy shit. Like, you don't know these things are happening because you can't, you don't do a Google search and these things come up, right? It's very like hidden dark things that are out there. Anyway. 

Stephanie: I don't understand why all of our, most of our cases that we've done this season and last season have to do with shoddy police work. 

Katie: Like, I don't want to just like... I mean, I feel like it's just cause like, I mean, some of these cases are because the police are human, they make mistakes- that happens. And so, you know, they do things they shouldn't, and we know about it cause it's in the media, but also, yeah, there is just a lot of things that are shady.

Stephanie: I just don't understand why that police officer who made that book or that documentary, like, I don't understand what he gained from that? Like, that's just a horrible thing to do. Like, uh, like what kind of person are you?

Katie: It's money! He got money from the book.

Stephanie: But that, I [00:33:00] don't know. That's just like a shitty person. 

AJ: Well, it's just interesting too, because like I was actually saying this before we started recording, but this is, I think our first case that we've covered outside of North America and like a lot of our cases that do involve like police misconduct or like shoddy investigations and stuff like that. So it's like, obviously that's not just a North American thing. Like, it happens everywhere. So you go to a case that's on the other side of the world in Portugal, and it's still the same things are happening. The same corruption. I mean, that's, it's not strictly, like, it's not restricted to like a certain country. It's like the whole fucking world is corrupt at this point. But you know, it's like the police department is like doing the same thing, like following leads or like trying to frame people or trying to do all this stuff. Like, it's crazy that like those same sort of themes are popping up even in little old Portugal.

Katie: Yeah. Cause it there's just like corrupt, shady people all over the world. 

So like the most recent theory or lead that has come out of this case unfortunately has to do with like pedophiles and child [00:34:00] sex rings and things like that. But.... so there's a man named Christian Bruckner and he lived just like over a kilometer away from where Madeline and her family were staying in Portugal. And he was a sex offender and he had raped a young girl in the past. And he had actually raped an elderly woman who was a guest at the same resort that the McCanns were staying at. And so, yeah, like I said before, like in Portugal, at that time, there was no official sex offender registry. And so he lived so close to that resort, but there was really no record of him. And he was actually not a registered resident of Portugal, I guess. Like he had fled Germany after a conviction of raping a young girl when he was only 17. And so he fled Germany and was living in Portugal, but there's never like an official documentation that he's lived there as a resident. So he was kind of like, just like a drifter kind of person, even though he had [00:35:00] lived there for like 10 years.

I guess if you don't register yourself, there's no way for anyone to track you, which is like the whole point and that's why he did that. So he was actually, um, arrested for an unrelated crime and rather than tell the authorities his address, like where he was living in Portugal, he just chose to stay in jail for like eight more months.

So I guess they must have been like, Well if you tell us where you live, you know, you're cooperating we'll reduce your sentence", but he decided not to do that. And just like stayed in jail for those full eight months. And while he was in jail, he got one of his friends to go over to his house and gather up like all his computers, all his hard drives and cameras and get rid of them so that when the police actually did go to search his house, they didn't find any of that stuff. But it does come out that more recently, they kind of dug up his yard. They figured out where he did live and they found over like 8,000 videos recovered that was buried in his yard, underneath the body of his dead dog. And so [00:36:00] they obviously found that this guy, he would like videotape all of his crimes. So I don't know, like 8,000 videos. I'm assuming some of them must have been of the same people, just like long videos. I can't imagine it was like 8,000 different victims, but either way they found these disturbing videos of, and there was even, there was a video of when he raped that elderly woman, like there was a video of that as well. And they also search like his RV that was on his property. And they found lots of bathing suits of young girls that he, that were in that RV. In the place where this resort was, um, Praia Da Luz, he was known by the locals for a lot of burglaries that he had committed. Um, he would burglarize like vacation rentals in the area.

And it was in November of 2005 when he raped that 72 year old woman. And he did that after he broke into her vacation home. And there was also evidence that he [00:37:00] tortured her as well when they found that videotape of it. And so he was like a very, like, they obviously they're like, yeah, he's a sociopath. He's very violent. And this is like his thing where he likes to rape and torture and videotape people. And so they're, they're thinking that he could be like a serial killer, but they don't have enough evidence for it. So soon after Madeline disappeared, this guy, Christian fled back to Germany. And throughout his past, like he had many young teenage girlfriends and he was very physically abusive and he would often talk to his friends and like tell people that he wanted to build a cellar kind of like similar to a cellar, that there's another case. Like the, I forget the guy's name, but Fritz, Frizzle or Fritzl where he kept his... yeah, it was Josef Fritzl, where he kept his, his own daughter for like 24 years in a cellar. And nobody because nobody knew she was down there. So he would talk about things like that. And they actually did find like a hidden cellar that he had [00:38:00] on one of the properties of where he used to live.

Um, and so he's just like that kind of guy, just like the, just like a scumbag. And that was kind of his thing. This like, just morbid violent, gross kind of stuff, you know, fascination with like kids, that's what they have. So they have all this evidence and he is actually in jail. Like he was convicted of some crime that made him, so he's in jail for like seven years. And so his German prosecutor namedHans Christian Wolters, who was involved in Madeline's case, um, he was interviewed for this 60 Minutes Australia documentary. And he officially says that they have enough evidence to suggest that Madeline is dead and that Christian actually killed her, but he can't go into detail.

And so, so just to clarify, like, or this episode of the 60 Minutes Australia called Maddie and the Monster came out in October of 2020. Um, and so this guy at the time [00:39:00] he's interviewed and he said, "We have enough evidence to suggest that Madeline is dead and that Christian Bruckner killed her". And he can't go into detail about why they have reached that conclusion, but he can say that that's the conclusion that they've come to.

And he says that they have known this for a couple of years, so around like 2018 ish, and they say that they can place him at the scene of Madeline's abduction. And they found phone records that can corroborate that as well, because it shows that Christian was likely tipped off that night, that there was children left alone in that apartment and there's phone records that show he was outside the apartment that night in the same timeframe where Madeline disappeared. So it seems like, you know, all circumstantial, but super compelling. And Christian was also identified by someone who recognized a sketch that an artist had done of some of the people that they saw lurking around the apartment and said that he... [00:40:00] that's how they caught him cause someone recognize him, oh, this looks like this guy. And that's where they went to go find him. And, but the police like made a mistake because they sent Christian a letter saying, oh, we think you are a witness to the Madeleine McCann case. So can you come and talk to us about it? And that kind of tipped him off as he was a suspect and he fled, but like I said, he was caught for another crime he's in jail at this time.

But this was like over a year ago that this came out and there's nothing like concrete saying that he's, uh, official suspect in this case, they haven't charged him with anything. And so I'm thinking maybe since he's already in jail, that they have, they think they have like a more time to kind of build up a solid, solid case. But Christian himself is saying like, they don't have enough evidence. They're never going to be able to have enough evidence to pin me to this. So he's not cooperating. Like he's not going to confess. And so, 

AJ: So he's not saying he didn't do it. He's just saying that they don't have enough evidence to pin me. 

Katie: Yeah, [00:41:00] yeah. Yeah. I think that's what he's saying. He's basically saying they're never going to be able to, you know, find enough evidence that it was me, but I feel like, what do they have that made them so convinced that Madeline's dead and that he did it? And if they have that much evidence, why hasn't he been like charged or convicted for it yet? This is over a year. What do you guys think? 

AJ: Yeah. That's why it's like, cause I, I think I saw that 60 Minutes thing, like a while ago, like shortly after it came out or something and I was like, it seems pretty like in the way they present it any way, it's like, oh, well this is the guy like it's solved, like after all these years, but then like nothing ever came out after that, like no update, he hasn't been charged like nothing further. So I'm like, how can something so damning result in no charges or anything? No follow up?

Katie: Yeah. That's it. When we first talked about doing this case, I was like, well, that's solved. I think, cause I remember them finding.... They being like, yeah, this guy definitely did it. So I'm like, okay, that's solved. But it actually isn't. Cause nothing else has come out about it. So it was kind of like what's going on?

Stephanie: What's sketchy about it for me [00:42:00] is that like, he's not denying that he didn't do it. Like he's not saying he did, but he's also not saying he didn't. So to me when people like when suspects or people like that, don't deny something.

It's like, what do they know? Like they must know something. Yeah. It's like, if you, if you didn't do something, you're going to be like, oh no, that was not me. Like right off the get go. But if he's not saying anything, it's like, okay, well that's just sketchy to me. And I think maybe they don't have enough to charge him with Madeline's murder, like with Madeline's disappearance, but like, I'm sure they have enough evidence to charge him with other things that he's, he has done. I'm like, he's obviously in jail for that reason, but.. I hope that they... that he's the person, then they finally found it. But I don't know.

AJ: I mean, it's a really, I mean, I guess that is a logical conclusion to come to, like if the cell phone records do corroborate that he was in that area around the time that she got [00:43:00] abducted and he also has this history of being a disgusting creep, it's like, well then, okay. You can probably say it, like if he was in that area, what are the chances that someone else also with similar intentions is also in the area doing it? 

Katie: Well, yeah. And one of his ex-girlfriends had come forward saying that he said that if somebody had brought up the Madeline McCann case and he said, he's like, oh yeah, I know what happened. Like I was there when she disappeared, but like, he wouldn't go into more detail. He's like, I'm not an idiot. Like I'm not going to talk about it. And so, but he kind of said that when he was drunk or something, and then she found like child porn on his phone or his computer, and when she confronted him about it, like he beat her up pretty bad and pushed her down the stairs. So he has that violent nature, as we know, and he obviously he's into child porn and he was there that night Madeline disappeared and he's a fucking scumbag. So everything points to him and like, as bad as it seems like, yeah. I kind of like, well, almost hopeful that it is him, that the search is over and we know, but like obviously what he would have done to her is not something anybody wants to [00:44:00] think about. So it's like a really bad ending, I feel.. 

AJ: What a disgusting, disgusting person. You said that was his girlfriend, right?? How does he have a girlfriend? My question ..

Katie: Well it's like an ex. One of his ex-girlfriends. 

AJ: Yeah. Like that's crazy. But then he also said like, if, according to its own story, like, if that is true, also find a weird story that you said, like he said that he knows what happened to her, but then he's not gonna like go into more detail. It's like, well, why would you even say anything then? He was like, well, I'm not an idiot. I'm not going to go into details. You don't have to say anything at all. 

Katie: I know it's almost like he wants to brag. It's like one of the hugest cases in the world, like worldwide. And he's like, yeah, like I, I have info on that. And it's kind of like, even just like holding it over people's heads. He's like, but I'm not going to say anything about it. 

AJ: Yeah. I mean, it also makes it seem like it wouldn't be him. Like somebody who's going to say that wouldn't be the one who did it. I don't know to me anyway. 

Stephanie: But people who also do things like that, like, I mean just different types of people who kill people and they keep it silent. But people, some people who kill. [00:45:00] Like boast about it because they're like, it's a thrill for them and it's like the attention they want to get. 

AJ: And it's like, there are a lot of times where you'll hear stories of like inmates who will brag about, you know, doing a murder and then they find out, well, that wasn't true. They were just saying that it's like, people love to just sort of like if he was a really that kind of creepy it's like he wanted to kind of, he wanted like the badge of honor as disgusting as it is to like, oh, I was the one who was responsible for the most, like one of the most popular, missing persons cases in the world. So it's like, almost like, and like he didn't, I mean, is there a, I guess there was going to say, was there evidence that he was like, bragging about all the other murders he did or all the other crimes he committed? It's like, why is it that the one that he's out there bragging about? 

Stephanie: I feel like he's like, he's fantasizing about maybe like, maybe he didn't do it to Madeline, but because it's such a wide case, like he has fantasized about what he would have done to Madeline. If he got there first, if if he didn't do it. Know what I mean?

Katie: Like, or he wishes it was him because he'd like be [00:46:00] famous kind of thing. So high profile, um, 

AJ: What are the chances that like, if it's, like I said, his cell phone pings and like that area right around the time she's abducted, like this is a disgusting monster. Like obviously, yeah. Like I said, it's the logical conclusion to jump to. 

Katie: And they're saying like, he wouldn't... didn't work alone. Like he was tipped off by somebody that knew that they, that Madeline was going to be left alone. So that goes back to the thing, like, well, maybe it was people that worked in the restaurant or maybe someone that worked at the hotel or the resort, like knew the routine and were like, yeah, at this time they're going to be left alone. So, and he was like right there.

Stephanie: It also like really shocks me that like at the time, or like now that they don't have like a sex offender registry in that area. 

Katie: Well, they might now! This was just back when she disappeared in 2007, they didn't.

Stephanie: Oh, okay. But I feel like that's off, like maybe, like, I know like, like where I live. That was something, you'd know back then, like if you looked it up, you'd see [00:47:00] who was like living in your area that was a pedophile. But I feel like...

AJ: Every country is different!

Stephanie: True. I guess. 

AJ: I mean, I can guarantee you, they probably do now because it seems like there's a lot of creepers in the area. 

Katie: Yeah. It's disgusting about how many of those, like pedophiles and like sex offenders actually live in certain communities. It's like scary to think about. Um, 

AJ: what do you think, do you think? Oh, sorry. I was just going to say do you think that Christian could be that guy who like walked in and that woman saw her about to abduct her child? 

Katie: I don't know. Like, is there a sketch of that person? Like, did they ever make a sketch? 

AJ: That's what I said. I don't think I'm assuming she would have, she got two good looks at him. She would have like... she reported to the police. I'm sure she would have described this man, but I don't, I've never seen like a sketch that ever came out about it..

Katie: Yeah. And I mean this 60 Minutes documentary, they kind of show like two different sketches that they feel like are the same person, but they came from two different people. So they are similar, but two different person, they send, when you kind of put them both together, they look like Christian, but I don't think he really looks like him at all. They're kind of like maybe [00:48:00] pushing that a bit, but I mean, either way he's a scumbag and probably should be in jail forever, whether that's going to happen. Like, whether they're just like taking their time to gather enough evidence so that it's like a slam dunk in jail, whether they really have met a dead end. I don't know. Like it's, uh, I don't, I don't know when he was put in jail. I don't know when he's going to be released. Cause he's only in there for seven years. So... 

AJ: Which is crazy to think. It's only seven years.But like, I just find it weird. It's like, why would you go public and say, we have all this evidence. And then like, why not just wait until you have everything you need and then release. It's like this, we got this guy. It's like, why would you release it just enough to be like, well, probably was him, but like, we're still looking for more like, why don't just wait until...?

Katie: He has said like, yes. You know, have enough evidence to say that Madeline is dead and enough evidence to say that Christian Bruckner did it, but that's all they're saying. And a year later, nothing else has come out about that. So I'm thinking maybe they just are keeping it close to their chest until they...

Stephanie: How do they know that [00:49:00] Madeline is dead? Did he say that?

Katie: NoNo! I'm saying they do have enough evidence to say that she is, but they don't have, they haven't released anything about why they know that. And I'm thinking maybe that's tied.

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, is that tied to what they found? Like buried, like people on this videos..

Stephanie: It's horrible, like the parents have to find out that she's dead, but it may, maybe it gives them kind of like a sense of relief as well that you like could have died, like right away. It's like, she wasn't like 

Katie: tortured or whatever.. But yeah, just like, know what happened to her. I feel like..

Stephanie: But saying that she is dead and then like, say like a couple of years down the road, they find out that she actually is alive then that's just like horrible in itself. 

Katie: Also like another little theory that came out in the 60 Minutes documentary.... I think that the night that Madeline was missing, someone had reported that they saw a couple, um, and they were like clutching like a, a kid in their arms. And they were like, it was almost that they were running away from something. And like when the, when the headlights hit them, it was almost like, oh my God, they were trying to [00:50:00] hide what they had. And they kind of like ran across the street, like into the woods or something. And even though someone reported this, cause they're like, this looks like these people should not be having this kid. Um, but the police like didn't look into it and for like over a year later, and of course at that point, they're like, who the fuckwho the fuck were these people? And there's nothing that ever came from that. And also there was like other stuff that came out that like someone had kidnapped her that wanted a child. Cause there was like that woman that came up I think this was in the documentary that a woman that came up to some guy, that was like, "Oh, do you have my new daughter? You have my new daughter? I don't know how that's related or why they would think that's related. But it happened like so close to when Madeline went disappeared as things like, oh, maybe someone kidnapped her to give to this woman. I'm thinking, like, if someone's looking for a new daughter, that's almost like the best case scenario for this kind of thing, because it's like, somebody is looking for a kid that they're going to take care of. And Madeline went with someone like that, then she's like happy and alive somewhere rather than, you know, 

AJ: Like, yeah. Wasn't it like it was in another city or something? It was like a woman went up to this guy and kept saying, [00:51:00] "do you have my new daughter? You're the man with my new daughter. You're going to bring me my new daughter? Or something.

Katie: And she realized that's not the person that she was looking for and then left. And like, nobody, nothing ever came out from that. It was like, what the hell? 

AJ: That was the same day the Madeline went missing or like the day after or something. Right? It was like very close. 

Katie: Yeah. It was super close. That's probably why they connected it. Cause, Madeline goes missing and then this woman is looking for her new daughter. I think it's a stretch to feel like they're connected especially because it's not even the same city.

AJ: Like, yeah, that is weird. So what, like someone there's like a business where somebody just goes and takes up someone's child and then someone else buys her? And I mean, I obviously, but like someone else... who was this woman? They never said.

Katie: No, they have like a sketch of it and they say it's like a Victoria Beckham lookalike, but it doesn't look like her at all. I feel. And, um, I don't know..

AJ: Like short hair!

Katie: Yeah, it was! Like buzzcut hair!

AJ: It's so weird. It's like, do they not know who Victoria Beckham is? 

Katie: Yeah. Maybe it's a different Victoria Beckham, but anyway, um, yeah, I guess maybe some people are just so desperate for, you know, to have a kid that they'll kidnap somebody else's kid, [00:52:00] which is like, I guess, best case scenario when a kidnapping, if you want to look at like that way, but I don't know.

AJ: That's yeah. That's so weird. Think it's just another like strange coincidence that like it's weird. It's like I have all these like different things happening. It's like you have those like orphanage people who are like, that happens. And then these random people who are like spotted, like the day of like lingering around the apartment. And then this other woman who is asking for her new daughter, like all these things happening all around the same time, like, it's so weird. Like I'll, how are all of these things happening simultaneously? Are they all connected or are they just completely separate things to just happen to happen at the same time?

Katie: Well, it's scary to think that so many of these possibilities could have happened. Like there's so many people out there that are looking to kidnap a kid for all these different reasons. And like, you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's going to be your kid. Like that's, it's terrifying to think!

Stephanie: That is really creepy.

AJ: Like I don't like, like, so when you look at all those things, it's like, so when you look at what happened [00:53:00] to Madeline, and it's either that Christian guy who did it, these orphanage scammer people who did it. This woman who's expecting her new child or something to do with that, did it, or this, then there was like the report they mentioned briefly about a man who, a masked man who would like break into people's homes. Maybe that is Christian, I guess if he was breaking and entering, because it could be tied to that. But like, cause like this documentary came out before that whole revelation about Christian came out. So he's not mentioned at all in the documentary. So I'm like, well maybe some of the things that they do mention are like tied to Christian. They just didn't know that at the time. Cause like they do mention that masked man who like, I think they do or someone does. I dunno, I've watched a lot of.. I feel like I'm watching a lot of things. So it's like all mixes like which one mentions what? 

Katie: Yeah. So the Netflix documentary, I think it doesn't mention Christian at all. And so it probably came out before they even had that or had enough to say it was him and I'm thinking like, oh yeah, some of these theories could be all the same person. They just don't know that it's the same person or the same group of people involved. Right? Like people breaking into houses could be, you know, related to Christian. That [00:54:00] kind of thing.

Stephanie: I'm wondering if like that lady who was talking about like, "do you have my new daughter?" Could be like, someone like that, Christian knows like a girlfriend or like someone that he's involved with in like...

Katie: It doesn't seem like he's the kind of guy that would be like, yeah, I'll steal a kid for you. Like, he's, he seems like I'm going to steal a kid for myself and then kill them. Like, I'm not going to give them to you!

AJ: But also, but also why would this woman go up to a random person on the street and be like, are you my, you have my new daughter?Because that's weird without knowing for sure if it's this guy, like just..

Katie: I was like, well, do you see me with a kid? Like, do I have a kid with me? And be like, no, I don't know why go up to that person. Like, yeah. Why risk going up to random stranger and saying that if this.. 

AJ: But also who was it that said that? Was it this man that then came forward and said, someone came up to me or like this, like, is it someone who's involved with like trying to like throw off a red herring?

Katie: I think the guy she approached came forward to police. And then he's the one that described her. And that's where the sketch came from. 

AJ: Oh yeah. Like this, oh, this woman came up to me and said, "do you have my new daughter?" Like, it's a weird, like, why would she... 

Katie: like, she just, [00:55:00] well, it could have been somebody mentally disturbed as well. That's like, you know, doesn't know what's happening. She's like confused about something. And she just went up to somebody random. It might have nothing to do with the kidnapping, but yeah, just coincidental the timing.. 

AJ: It it's just like one of those cases that like,, how can one case have so many, like either a red herring or like, and also this place seems hella dangerous. Like, I mean, there's all these random people breaking into houses, like trying to scam you for money or trying to like, it's just crazy. I mean, Portugal is a lovely place. I went there. Beautiful, safe. I never felt unsafe, but also I'm also not like a three-year-old girl. 

Katie: Yeah. That's what people were saying that that town is safe. Like people come to visit, tourists. People leave the doors unlocked. Like it's safe. Everything, every place is safe until it's not, right? And so people have a different view of this place because of what happened. And yeah.

Stephanie: So I never leave my door unlocked. 

AJ: It's crazy. Like, I just think it's like, I don't [00:56:00] know. It's like, so all of the, because Madeline went missing, that's why all of these other things became known, like the report about that woman or like these people asking what the orphanage, like all of that came out because of Madeline's disappearance. So like that could have just be like, she goes to show you that there's all these other sketchy things that are happening that just nobody knows about.

Katie: And none of this stuff gets reported until a huge thing, like this breaks and just happened to be this like little girl that went missing. Cause like, yeah, if that, if Madeline didn't go missing, like we wouldn't know about like the orphanage scam, like who's going to report and care about that? Like nobody, because it's not a high profile. You know, little girl that went missing. 

AJ: Yeah. And like, it is creepy to think like, you know, there are like the stories and stuff where it's like, you know, child sex trafficking and all of that. It's a huge, like multi billion dollar disgusting operation. So it's like this huge like network of underground people. So it's like, it's probably happening in all pockets of the world, all corners of the world. But like, so this one little town in Portugal [00:57:00] is just like one sort of like one sort of like representation of that. But it's like happening everywhere, which is so scary.

Katie: Because nobody can find them. It's all like the dark web. Like you can't get to the, like, it's all like a website, like to think of like, just like social networks, like Facebook. It's like that, but for people like specific people that have this website and stick to shrink and like, nobody can get there unless, you know, somebody that knows it and can tell you about it. So not, everyone's just gonna know about it. And like what ha and the, one of the things on this 60 Minutes episode also, it was like... you can't be, you can't get into these like pedophile rings and websites, unless you like, produce like a picture of a kid no one's ever seen before to prove that you're one of them. So you can't just go out and produce it. Yeah. You have to have some new material to show that.

Stephanie: Super disturbing!

Katie: It is. 

Stephanie: The most disturbing thing I've heard today!

Katie: That's why investigators and police can't just get in there because you know, they can't do that kind [00:58:00] of thing to prove that they're one of them, because they're not. So it's very secretive, underground, like specific people. And it's like a billion dollar industry. So of course they're gonna protect it. 

Stephanie: That's terrifying. 

AJ: And it's like creepy. It's like, well, don't, they have that investigator on the documentary who is like going into the dark web. Like he somehow got into it. He's like an investigator. Right? And then he says like, he's like also feel bad for him. He's like the things I've seen on the dark web, like you can't just unsee that. Or like he has to pretend to be one of them and like partake in these chat rooms, like fucking disgusting!. So it's so crazy to think, and it's like, yeah, it's not like you can never, you would never just stumble upon it online. Like, it's like a very, like, you have to know someone who can let you in. 

Katie: Yeah, it really is disgusting. And that's like, one of the guys was saying too, like in that documentary, it's like, they should put as much effort as they put into like counter-terrorism as they do into like pedophile rings and stuff like that. Like they, they, they pump like billions of dollars into [00:59:00] counter-terrorism and like just millions into pedophile rings. So it's like, they need to step it up. I feel this is like one of the worst things that happens in the world is, you know, child sex rings. What's worse than that?

AJ: And it's so disgusting.

And also like, I don't know, it's like almost a part of me. It's like sad to say, but. Almost, I don't know how to say this without sounding like drastic, but it was like a part of me almost hopes Madeline's dead because if she's still alive and being subjected to that depravity and torture every single day, like that's almost worse than if she was just killed.

Katie: I know it does seem like it's worse. 

Stephanie: How many children have gone missing that are actually in these like sex rings? Like there are so many children, like through the years of who've gone missing, that could be in the sex rings. Like there's just like so many cases out there that have children gone missing. And like how many of those children have never been found that could be in the sex rings? Like for years and years? Like, it's just so sickening to think of. 

Katie: Yeah. It's like hundreds of [01:00:00] thousands, like in a documentary they have like that binder of like, cause somebody had found this website with all these kids and you just go like that woman just going through all these pictures, see if she can find her son. It's like super sad and scary. And like, just like holy frig, like what these people are going through. Like kids... can't imagine. 

AJ: Yeah, so it's so fucking disgusting. Um, 

Stephanie: I was gonna say AJ, I do agree with you. Like I hope Madeline is dead as sad as that sounds, because I don't want to think that she's like what this is how many years has she been missing? 

AJ: Yeah. Like if it's been like 14 years. Yeah. 

Stephanie: And to think that she could still be alive, but in that type of environment, like, you almost wish that she's...

AJ: but also too, it's like, they mentioned in the documentary too that with any missing child, it's like the not knowing is the worst. Right? Like the parents every single day. It's like, you never know if like, if today's the day where I'm going to get that phone call where I think she's been found or something. Right? So it's like had that agony it's like, almost at least if like you [01:01:00] had, at least if they knew, it's like, okay. They know, but it's like the, what ifs it's would be like torturous.

Katie: Yeah. Definitely that's what I'm saying. Like, not knowing is worse than, you know, finding out that she's dead. Cause at least you have closure and you know what happened. Put it to rest kind of thing, but I can't imagine not knowing, just imagine being a parent and just like not knowing what happened to your kid!

Like, it's just the worst feeling. I feel, 

I feel like you could never, ever just relax ever. Cause you're never know. 

Katie: No, you'd never be able to. 

AJ: Yeah. It was almost a surprise to that. Like nothing, you know how sometimes in like long-term missing persons cases where it's like, they consider someone dead, like, they don't have the body, but they just like declared dead or something. Like, I'm also surprised, like with that whole revelation that came up with the Christian, it's like, why they wouldn't have just like, okay, she's missing, but we're going to declare her legally dead or something. Like 

Katie: They'll have to reveal proof as to why they think that I think, and they're just not ready to do that. They're just keeping it close to them until they can make that conclusion. '

AJ: Cause I [01:02:00] mean, I feel like they did that for well, another case I'm thinking of right now, it's like the Natalee Holloway case who went missing in Aruba or whatever, like back in 2006 or 2005 or whatever, like they declared her legally dead and they never found her body, but like there was. I feel like we have evidence that they're dead, they're dead. So it's like, how do you declare them legally dead without having enough evidence to prove that they're dead. You know what I mean? 

Stephanie: And so, and that's even worse though, like for the parent as well, like the police are saying like your child's dead, but they don't have their body. Like you have a funeral, but no body like doesn't even feel real. Like you had it just, I don't know. I feel like you can't.

AJ: It's like excruciating, you can't mourn. 

Katie: It's like, where are they? Where are they? Yeah. Never knowing like where the remains ended up. Like that's you just don't know. It'd be awful. 

AJ: It's just crazy to think, like, as if they had like found her body, like right away, it's like, okay, that would have been 14 years, obviously you're not ever over it, but you're like they could have gone through the mourning process or the grief process and could have, at least [01:03:00] by now sort of had some sort of closure, but now it's like can't ever do that. It's like, it's like the grieving process, but like for 14 years, 

Katie: It would just be awful. I can't imagine. But I think that, so I guess in conclusion, my feeling is that it is this Christian guy. I feel like they're just not releasing evidence because they just don't want to release everything yet, but they have enough and that, I feel like an update will be coming soon and he will be charged. That's what I feel. I hope.

AJ: I guess if I had to say, I think like, yeah, I would have to say it's probably that Christian guy, like, that's the most solid thing they have. Like, if the police are saying we have evidence to suggest he did it.

Katie: They seem so confident that it feels like it can't be anything other than that, like you can't say, yeah, we officially say that she's dead. And he did it without being that confident. 

AJ: Yeah. Yeah. So I would say, like, my theory is probably that it is him, but I don't definitely don't think he acted alone. Like he was tipped off by somebody, or he was like a part of some sort of ring of people or group of people. So I think like, even if they do [01:04:00] prove it's him, I still think that there's other people that need to be brought to justice somehow who were involved in either tipping them off or whatever, or maybe they were, I don't know if he physically did it and then delivered her to someone else. Or like you said, he's probably not in the business of doing it for other people or if like somebody did it and brought her to him or something like, there's feel like there's someone else somewhere along the line who was involved, but I just don't know who.

Stephanie: Yeah. I agree with, I agree with both of you. Like I think this Christian guy is definitely the one who took Madeline. And whether she, like, whether she is dead or alive, like that's, well, they were saying she's dead too, but I don't really think, I don't know. I've had a time believing that she's dead without them proven that there's like without a body, but anyways, but I'm hoping that like, this person is the one that took Madeline. That way they can just like move on with the case. The parents can finally, like, [01:05:00] know what happened to Madeline, but he might not, he's never going to say what, what he, she did with her.

AJ: I mean, he might. If they come out with the evidence to say it's him and we know it and he's captured, he might like to brag about it. He sounds like a pretty disgusting person, so.... 

Stephanie: That was just going to say, like, he, probably one of those people who likes to boast about stuff like that to make him like, to make himself like feel superior. 

Katie: Yeah. And like, he might not be saying anything because he's only in jail for seven years, so he's not going to risk saying something, but if they have enough evidence, and like, well, you're going to be in jail forever anyway, he might be like, "okay, well here's what happened. I want the fame!" 

AJ: Yeah. So I think it's probably... I feel like it's like, just on the cusp of being solved, but nothing's ever been like definitively a hundred percent said yet.

Katie: I know. I just feel like any day, there's just gonna be like a headline breaking, like convicted or something.

Stephanie: It'd be nice to see this case solved. Because unlike the JonBenet [01:06:00] case, like it's so hard and when a case goes on for this long and not being solved, it's just so frustrating. So I'm hoping this case gets solved and people can just move on and get closure. 

Katie: Yeah. At least this case, there's like a solid suspect and like JonBenet, it's still a complete mystery.

AJ: Yeah. And it's like, almost, as every year passes. It's like, it's less likely with each year that it's going to be solved. It's just, but maybe this one there's hope for this one, at least. 

Katie: Yeah. We'll definitely be on the lookout for an update for this one for sure. 

AJ: Yeah. So that's the Madeline McCann case. Do either of you have any final thoughts or? 

Stephanie: No, I was gonna say like, I felt like there's so many other, like, there's so many cases we could pick from like it, but I felt like this one, just because of the new evidence, I felt like this one was a good one to go with because it's not solved yet. 

AJ: Well, I mean it, I mean, yeah, like it's similar, like the season one finale we did the unsolved, like JonBenet. Now this one, the Madeleine McCann, like similar [01:07:00] cases. So I guess for season three, we'll do another high profile unsolved one. 

So, yeah, that's it for season two, you guys have any thoughts about the season as a whole or some sneak peaks of season three? What are you guys thinking? What's coming up? 

Stephanie: It was definitely a more, like, I want to say time consuming season where, because we had and very interesting, cause we had a lot of it like important guests and a lot of important cases and it was just, I had a fun time like learning and like researching a lot of different cases.

AJ: Yeah. I feel like season two is definitely.. We tackled some interesting, a wide kind of, sort of a vast array of different cases, but also like super important, like we did in the miniseries for the missing and murdered Indigenous women. And then we did like, you know, the Botham Jean one who was like, you know, that one was like black lives matter sort of things.. We tackled wrongful convictions. Stuff like that-- domestic violence. So we've kind of tried to tackle important topics and like keep everyone, everyone [01:08:00] interested. And, um, yeah, like season three, we will probably have some more guests lined up for you. We're kind of working behind the scenes to get that all lined up for you right now. 

Stephanie: Maybe we'll be on location!. No, I'm just kidding .

AJ: On location? Where? In Portugal? That's good. Yeah. We're going to record outside the apartment 5A! Stay tuned for that. 

Katie: Yeah, nothing to do with Madeline McCann, but we'll just talk about other things.

AJ: Yeah. But yeah, so, so we will be back for season three. Um, in a short amount of time, we also have our merch store! Very exciting that we're working on that. We also have probably a website that we're going to design and get up and running somewhat soon. 

Katie: It's in the works! 

AJ: But we have a lot of things in the works and we have some cases, of course it all comes back to the cases that we're going to do. And we're going to be thinking about cases we want to do. We're going to have another miniseries, I'm sure. 

Katie: Now it's like the perfect time. If you have like a, if you want to reach out, like you have a case that you want us to cover or something like now's the perfect time, because we're like in the works of [01:09:00] planning season three. So we can definitely fit stuff in still. 

AJ: Yeah. Like it's so much easier to like fit a case in once you suggest one, versus like once we already have it all planned out which cases we're doing. And then we get like a really good one through email. It's like, we can make it work. But like, for the, for the sake of time, if you want it timely, then reach out- definitely interact with us online and social media, because we want to know what you think of the show and that's how we continue to make good content, because we know what you guys like. If we don't know what you like, we can't improve and we can't offer it. 

Stephanie: And if you'd like some merch, stay tuned for the merch store. Very exciting stuff! 

AJ: Yes. So definitely if you are interested in merch,or you like... you want to see the things that definitely... Follow us on social media, because that's where we're going to post, like all the updates about when it's going to be released and maybe some sneak peaks of some of the designs or the items that you can buy on the merch store!

So follow us on social media @crimefamilypodcast on Instagram or @crimefamilypod1 on Twitter, and [01:10:00] we are on Facebook at Crime Family Podcast. Um, and our email is crimefamilypodcast@gmail.com. So yeah, had a lot of fun doing season two and season three will be bigger and better. Bye. See you next season.

Katie: Bye!

Stephanie: Bye everybody.